[EMS Discuss] The "official" forum is getting spammed

James Hukill EMAIL HIDDEN
Tue Mar 13 14:32:03 PDT 2012


Suggestion ?

That  this thread has gotten lost ?

Agree bring items to the member meeting to have a open discussion?
 
So at this point we table it and move on with our days 

--James 


Please forgive the typos, using my thumbs to type. 


On Mar 13, 2012, at 2:03 PM, "Mr. Clif" <EMAIL HIDDEN> wrote:

> hmmm, I think I can create a forum for people to test. Yes maybe there were a few of us on the board that didn't get a broader buy in for the membership, but I had general instructions to proceed, perhaps that was premature.
> 
> How does giving you and James moderator access = locked everyone out.
> 
> I have made changes like obscuring emails, moderating account sign up, etc...
> 
> I understand you are upset, but in your arguments have words like everyone, dictator, "all suggestions were refused" etc... Sorry this isn't true, please try to be more reasonable.
> 
> You have to realize that even though you have strong opinions it doesn’t cancel out what others think. I think a good process would be to form some key questions about the forums and ask people to vote. Then you bring them along with you instead of being divisive, and forming factions by trying to argue the loudest.
> 
> I think you are confusing me not accepting all your suggestions cart Blanche with having made up my mind about what the best way to handle it is. I haven’t and  I'm not that attached personally to how it gets set up. But I do know that the whole group should try to participate in the discussion. not just a couple of people. If there is some agreement then I think we can all be comfortable with that.
> 
>    Clif
> 
> In Eugene wrote:
>> That's not accurate at all. You asked if I thought linking the email
>> distro list would be a good idea. I agreed that if it could be done
>> that would be great. Then what you did was make a new forum without
>> getting buy-in from anyone and then locked everyone out of it and
>> you've been running it like a dictator ever since. All suggestions and
>> recommendations have been totally ignored because "Clif knows better".
>> Almost nothing has changed on that forum since you created it. Don't
>> give me this "Prototype" bullshit. You put it in production and
>> essentially told the rest of the group that this was the way it was
>> going to be.
>> 
>> -N
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 12:28 PM, Mr. Clif<EMAIL HIDDEN>  wrote:
>>   
>>> James,
>>> 
>>> Do you remember that Sunday when we talked about the idea of linked mailing
>>> lists and forums? I also talked to Rick and Nathan about it at the same
>>> time. You all thought it was a good idea, so I went a head and prototyped
>>> it. If you had all said no it sucked I wouldn't have bothered.
>>> 
>>>    Clif
>>> 
>>> James Hukill wrote:
>>>     
>>>> What group process?  You took it over, ignoring the work Nathan did,  and
>>>> decided to build it yourself on your hardware.  Pot calling kettle.
>>>> 
>>>> The culture of the EMS is that is a member see something absent they can
>>>> take the initiative to solve it.  You hijacked Nathans work and decided to
>>>> go rogue and do your own verson.  I don't like yours, and don't have to.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --James
>>>> 
>>>> On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 11:39 AM, Mr. Clif<EMAIL HIDDEN>    wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>       
>>>>> I am unclear how any forum will automatically know how to tell a spammer
>>>>> from an honest person. I believe it will always require human
>>>>> intervention.
>>>>> Please prove me wrong. As I mentioned before you will have to chose
>>>>> weather
>>>>> or not to decide based on the new account application or the first post.
>>>>> All forums that I know of allow you to decide which you prefer. I'm not
>>>>> sure where the band aid is here. It's not even a plugin. It's a click of
>>>>> a
>>>>> check box.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I feel that perhaps you are impatient with the group process that will
>>>>> decide these things, and are trying to convince us that phpBB has this
>>>>> check box and FUDforum doesn’t.
>>>>> 
>>>>>    Clif
>>>>> 
>>>>> James Hukill wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>         
>>>>>> There is http://www.phpbb.com/ that does not have these spam/account
>>>>>> problems.  Why band-aid a solution that does not work when there is one
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> the shelf that does work.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> In other words, consider this a motion to use PHPBB instead, as it's a
>>>>>> know
>>>>>> working solution.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --James
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 10:45 AM, Mr. Clif<EMAIL HIDDEN>     wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>> Yes we should talk about it, and I'm looking into some ideas.
>>>>>>> I would like to note that it's not spam posting problem, and currently
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> can delete all the bogus accounts at once. I would also like it to work
>>>>>>> kinda like Rick suggests, but I don't see how that could be completely
>>>>>>> automated. It requires some manual intervention, and then a bit of a
>>>>>>> delay.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> As I mentioned before you either moderate the account creation or the
>>>>>>> first post(s). As Rick has hinted at, these things are always tradeoffs
>>>>>>> between Usability and Security / Annoyance.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> To address Nathan's comment about the names, you don't have to create
>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>> account to see those. They are visible to anyone browsing the forum, or
>>>>>>> mailing list archives for that matter. I was able to change my name
>>>>>>> without
>>>>>>> duplicating my account, however you can merge accounts back together if
>>>>>>> that happens. Also, It's not enabled by default but you can allow
>>>>>>> aliases
>>>>>>> for each user. Presumably, those would be displayed instead of the
>>>>>>> names.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> It all boils down to personal choice and what you let other people know
>>>>>>> about you.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>    Clif
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Rick Osgood wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>> I want to see this discussion continue but I wonder if it would also
>>>>>>>> be good to keep a list of the different ideas for fixing the spam
>>>>>>>> problem and talk about them at the member meeting next Wednesday?
>>>>>>>> That is assuming some agreed upon resolution is not found in these
>>>>>>>> discussions.  It seems like altering the way spam is controlled would
>>>>>>>> possibly affect all members who may want to use the forums so maybe we
>>>>>>>> could present the ideas at the meeting and everyone could just vote on
>>>>>>>> them. I just don't want to see this conversation just sort of die away
>>>>>>>> and then nothing is really changed or fixed.  Talking about it at the
>>>>>>>> meeting could be a good way to come up with an action to actually
>>>>>>>> change/fix things.  Just an idea though, we don't have to do that
>>>>>>>> either.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 9:42 AM, James Hukill<EMAIL HIDDEN>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>>> I use message boards all day and IMHO, making new members or
>>>>>>>>> potential
>>>>>>>>> new
>>>>>>>>> members wait to post may chase them off.  On other boards I frequent
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> moderate we do not have a spam account problem.  We should move to
>>>>>>>>> software
>>>>>>>>> that does not have these issues.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> --James
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 9:34 AM, Rick
>>>>>>>>> Osgood<EMAIL HIDDEN***
>>>>>>>>> *com<EMAIL HIDDEN**>
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>>>> I'm mostly indifferent to all of this.  i haven't used forums much
>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>> the past, never mind moderating them so I really have no experience
>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>> this area.  That being said, I would just like to see it setup in
>>>>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>>>>> a way that members can sign up and start posting quickly without
>>>>>>>>>> having to wait a long time for someone to approve their
>>>>>>>>>> account/posts/whatever.  It's definitely frustrating to want to post
>>>>>>>>>> something and have to just wait until some admin somewhere decides
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> check out your account and approve it.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 7:40 AM, Ben Hallert<EMAIL HIDDEN>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>>> I endorse this.  At even the most wildly enthusiastic predictions
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> the future of the group, this would remain maintainable.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> - Ben
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 7:19 AM, Laura Harris<EMAIL HIDDEN>
>>>>>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>>>>> Don't allow people to create their own accounts- end of problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>> It's
>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>> lot
>>>>>>>>>>>> easier for an admin to create an account than to maintain an
>>>>>>>>>>>> ongoing
>>>>>>>>>>>> routine
>>>>>>>>>>>> of purging spammers and their spam.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****__
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Ellery Weber<EMAIL HIDDEN>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: InEugene<EMAIL HIDDEN>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: com.eugenemakerspace.discuss@****eugenemakerspace.com<com.**
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> eugenemakerspace.discuss@**eugenemakerspace.com<EMAIL HIDDEN>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>                       
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                         
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 10:40 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [EMS Discuss] The "official" forum is getting spammed
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> did asd123, achsoo, waligators2013 get verified as users?
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> --- Ellery Weber
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 10:15 PM, InEugene<EMAIL HIDDEN>
>>>>>>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> If you look at the "homepages" they've set up. It's pretty obvious
>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>> spam accounts. There have been three additional accounts created
>>>>>>>>>>>> since
>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>>> initial email. The captcha doesn't seem to be helping. Fully 1/3
>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> accounts are now fake spam accounts. When the spammer creates an
>>>>>>>>>>>> account on
>>>>>>>>>>>> that forum they also have access to our first and last names. Not
>>>>>>>>>>>> critical
>>>>>>>>>>>> but I tried to change the name on my account from Nathan Worth to
>>>>>>>>>>>> NathanW
>>>>>>>>>>>> and somehow I now have two accounts. I'm curious on how the
>>>>>>>>>>>> spammers
>>>>>>>>>>>> got to
>>>>>>>>>>>> your forum so fast. I would assume mine would have been hit
>>>>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>>>>> they are
>>>>>>>>>>>> hosted on a free forum site, but I've had no problems. Feel free
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> take a
>>>>>>>>>>>> look, you'll have to create an account to do so though as I have
>>>>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>>>>> general discussion open to non-members and nothing open to guests.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://eugenemakerspace.**free**forums.org/<http://freeforums.org/>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://**eugenemakerspace.freeforums.**org/<http://eugenemakerspace.freeforums.org/>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>                       
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                         
>>>>>>>>>>>> -N
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/12/2012 6:43 PM, Mr. Clif wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> That's interesting, thanks for pointing that out Nathan. Yes those
>>>>>>>>>>>> accounts did get created but I only see that
>>>>>>>>>>>> asd123 tried to post anything, and that was caught in the
>>>>>>>>>>>> moderation
>>>>>>>>>>>> queue as it should be. I'm looking for the other's messages but it
>>>>>>>>>>>> says
>>>>>>>>>>>> zero.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> As we discussed before we can adjust the number of messages
>>>>>>>>>>>> someone
>>>>>>>>>>>> must
>>>>>>>>>>>> send that must be approved by the moderator. I'm not sure about
>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>> wouldn't it be cool if that number of posts had to be actually
>>>>>>>>>>>> approved
>>>>>>>>>>>> before they could get out of the "moderation box". If true, then
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> spamers could only create accounts which will eventually be
>>>>>>>>>>>> cleaned
>>>>>>>>>>>> up
>>>>>>>>>>>> like so much garbage. Additionally it's possible delete all of
>>>>>>>>>>>> someones
>>>>>>>>>>>> posts with their account but that may not even be necessary.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Well as far as tradeoffs go, allowing genuine users easy account
>>>>>>>>>>>> creation may be worth the trouble of deleting unused spam accounts
>>>>>>>>>>>> once
>>>>>>>>>>>> in awhile. There shouldn't be that many because there is a captcha
>>>>>>>>>>>> test.
>>>>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, there is a point of moderation either way. The
>>>>>>>>>>>> Moderators either have to approve accounts or approve posts. I've
>>>>>>>>>>>> found
>>>>>>>>>>>> that asking them to fill out a form item like say "What are your
>>>>>>>>>>>> interests" Doesn’t always work. eg, James didn't and I had to ask
>>>>>>>>>>>> him
>>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>> that account with a different email address was actually him.
>>>>>>>>>>>> So....
>>>>>>>>>>>> It
>>>>>>>>>>>> might be easier to just wait and see what their first post is.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Clif
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> InEugene wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Looks like spam 7 accounts were created. Only one new post by one
>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> the spam accounts. 2 Friday, 2 Saturday, 1 Sunday, 2 today. Odd,
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> links they posted are mostly German. No spam on the "unofficial"
>>>>>>>>>>>> forums I created. Neither accounts nor posts. Not sure why that
>>>>>>>>>>>> is.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> - Nathan
>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> Discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> EMAIL HIDDEN
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://eugenemakerspace.com/****mailman/listinfo/com.**<http://eugenemakerspace.com/**mailman/listinfo/com.**>
>>>>>>>>>>>> eugenemakerspace.discuss<http:**//eugenemakerspace.com/**
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> mailman/listinfo/com.**eugenemakerspace.discuss<http://eugenemakerspace.com/mailman/listinfo/com.eugenemakerspace.discuss>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>                       
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                         
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> Discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> EMAIL HIDDEN
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://eugenemakerspace.com/****mailman/listinfo/com.**<http://eugenemakerspace.com/**mailman/listinfo/com.**>
>>>>>>>>>>>> eugenemakerspace.discuss<http:**//eugenemakerspace.com/**
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> mailman/listinfo/com.**eugenemakerspace.discuss<http://eugenemakerspace.com/mailman/listinfo/com.eugenemakerspace.discuss>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>                       
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                         
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> Discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> EMAIL HIDDEN
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://eugenemakerspace.com/****mailman/listinfo/com.**<http://eugenemakerspace.com/**mailman/listinfo/com.**>
>>>>>>>>>>>> eugenemakerspace.discuss<http:**//eugenemakerspace.com/**
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> mailman/listinfo/com.**eugenemakerspace.discuss<http://eugenemakerspace.com/mailman/listinfo/com.eugenemakerspace.discuss>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>                       
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                         
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> Discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> EMAIL HIDDEN
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://eugenemakerspace.com/****mailman/listinfo/com.**<http://eugenemakerspace.com/**mailman/listinfo/com.**>
>>>>>>>>>>>> eugenemakerspace.discuss<http:**//eugenemakerspace.com/**
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> mailman/listinfo/com.**eugenemakerspace.discuss<http://eugenemakerspace.com/mailman/listinfo/com.eugenemakerspace.discuss>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>                       
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                         
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> Discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> EMAIL HIDDEN
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://eugenemakerspace.com/****mailman/listinfo/com.**<http://eugenemakerspace.com/**mailman/listinfo/com.**>
>>>>>>>>>>>> eugenemakerspace.discuss<http:**//eugenemakerspace.com/**
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> mailman/listinfo/com.**eugenemakerspace.discuss<http://eugenemakerspace.com/mailman/listinfo/com.eugenemakerspace.discuss>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>                       
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                         
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>                       
>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> EMAIL HIDDEN
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> http://eugenemakerspace.com/****mailman/listinfo/com.**<http://eugenemakerspace.com/**mailman/listinfo/com.**>
>>>>>>>>>>> eugenemakerspace.discuss<http:**//eugenemakerspace.com/**
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> mailman/listinfo/com.**eugenemakerspace.discuss<http://eugenemakerspace.com/mailman/listinfo/com.eugenemakerspace.discuss>
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>                       
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________
>>>>>>>>>> Discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> EMAIL HIDDEN
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> http://eugenemakerspace.com/****mailman/listinfo/com.**<http://eugenemakerspace.com/**mailman/listinfo/com.**>
>>>>>>>>>> eugenemakerspace.discuss<http:**//eugenemakerspace.com/**
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> mailman/listinfo/com.**eugenemakerspace.discuss<http://eugenemakerspace.com/mailman/listinfo/com.eugenemakerspace.discuss>
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> --James
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________
>>>>>>>> Discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>> EMAIL HIDDEN
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> http://eugenemakerspace.com/****mailman/listinfo/com.**<http://eugenemakerspace.com/**mailman/listinfo/com.**>
>>>>>>>> eugenemakerspace.discuss<http:**//eugenemakerspace.com/**
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> mailman/listinfo/com.**eugenemakerspace.discuss<http://eugenemakerspace.com/mailman/listinfo/com.eugenemakerspace.discuss>
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>           
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>         
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> 
>>>>       
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>     
>> _______________________________________________
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> 
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