[EMS Discuss] The "official" forum is getting spammed

Ellery Weber EMAIL HIDDEN
Tue Mar 13 14:37:40 PDT 2012


I think this discussion has moved past the appropriateness of email and
should be discussed at member meeting.

Anyone that has opinions in this subject should prep and prepare to share
opinion and resolution.
On Mar 13, 2012 2:33 PM, "James Hukill" <EMAIL HIDDEN> wrote:

> Suggestion ?
>
> That  this thread has gotten lost ?
>
> Agree bring items to the member meeting to have a open discussion?
>
> So at this point we table it and move on with our days
>
> --James
>
>
> Please forgive the typos, using my thumbs to type.
>
>
> On Mar 13, 2012, at 2:03 PM, "Mr. Clif" <EMAIL HIDDEN> wrote:
>
> > hmmm, I think I can create a forum for people to test. Yes maybe there
> were a few of us on the board that didn't get a broader buy in for the
> membership, but I had general instructions to proceed, perhaps that was
> premature.
> >
> > How does giving you and James moderator access = locked everyone out.
> >
> > I have made changes like obscuring emails, moderating account sign up,
> etc...
> >
> > I understand you are upset, but in your arguments have words like
> everyone, dictator, "all suggestions were refused" etc... Sorry this isn't
> true, please try to be more reasonable.
> >
> > You have to realize that even though you have strong opinions it doesn’t
> cancel out what others think. I think a good process would be to form some
> key questions about the forums and ask people to vote. Then you bring them
> along with you instead of being divisive, and forming factions by trying to
> argue the loudest.
> >
> > I think you are confusing me not accepting all your suggestions cart
> Blanche with having made up my mind about what the best way to handle it
> is. I haven’t and  I'm not that attached personally to how it gets set up.
> But I do know that the whole group should try to participate in the
> discussion. not just a couple of people. If there is some agreement then I
> think we can all be comfortable with that.
> >
> >    Clif
> >
> > In Eugene wrote:
> >> That's not accurate at all. You asked if I thought linking the email
> >> distro list would be a good idea. I agreed that if it could be done
> >> that would be great. Then what you did was make a new forum without
> >> getting buy-in from anyone and then locked everyone out of it and
> >> you've been running it like a dictator ever since. All suggestions and
> >> recommendations have been totally ignored because "Clif knows better".
> >> Almost nothing has changed on that forum since you created it. Don't
> >> give me this "Prototype" bullshit. You put it in production and
> >> essentially told the rest of the group that this was the way it was
> >> going to be.
> >>
> >> -N
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 12:28 PM, Mr. Clif<EMAIL HIDDEN>  wrote:
> >>
> >>> James,
> >>>
> >>> Do you remember that Sunday when we talked about the idea of linked
> mailing
> >>> lists and forums? I also talked to Rick and Nathan about it at the same
> >>> time. You all thought it was a good idea, so I went a head and
> prototyped
> >>> it. If you had all said no it sucked I wouldn't have bothered.
> >>>
> >>>    Clif
> >>>
> >>> James Hukill wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> What group process?  You took it over, ignoring the work Nathan did,
>  and
> >>>> decided to build it yourself on your hardware.  Pot calling kettle.
> >>>>
> >>>> The culture of the EMS is that is a member see something absent they
> can
> >>>> take the initiative to solve it.  You hijacked Nathans work and
> decided to
> >>>> go rogue and do your own verson.  I don't like yours, and don't have
> to.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --James
> >>>>
> >>>> On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 11:39 AM, Mr. Clif<EMAIL HIDDEN>
>  wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> I am unclear how any forum will automatically know how to tell a
> spammer
> >>>>> from an honest person. I believe it will always require human
> >>>>> intervention.
> >>>>> Please prove me wrong. As I mentioned before you will have to chose
> >>>>> weather
> >>>>> or not to decide based on the new account application or the first
> post.
> >>>>> All forums that I know of allow you to decide which you prefer. I'm
> not
> >>>>> sure where the band aid is here. It's not even a plugin. It's a
> click of
> >>>>> a
> >>>>> check box.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I feel that perhaps you are impatient with the group process that
> will
> >>>>> decide these things, and are trying to convince us that phpBB has
> this
> >>>>> check box and FUDforum doesn’t.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>    Clif
> >>>>>
> >>>>> James Hukill wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> There is http://www.phpbb.com/ that does not have these
> spam/account
> >>>>>> problems.  Why band-aid a solution that does not work when there is
> one
> >>>>>> on
> >>>>>> the shelf that does work.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> In other words, consider this a motion to use PHPBB instead, as
> it's a
> >>>>>> know
> >>>>>> working solution.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --James
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 10:45 AM, Mr. Clif<EMAIL HIDDEN>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Yes we should talk about it, and I'm looking into some ideas.
> >>>>>>> I would like to note that it's not spam posting problem, and
> currently
> >>>>>>> you
> >>>>>>> can delete all the bogus accounts at once. I would also like it to
> work
> >>>>>>> kinda like Rick suggests, but I don't see how that could be
> completely
> >>>>>>> automated. It requires some manual intervention, and then a bit of
> a
> >>>>>>> delay.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> As I mentioned before you either moderate the account creation or
> the
> >>>>>>> first post(s). As Rick has hinted at, these things are always
> tradeoffs
> >>>>>>> between Usability and Security / Annoyance.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> To address Nathan's comment about the names, you don't have to
> create
> >>>>>>> an
> >>>>>>> account to see those. They are visible to anyone browsing the
> forum, or
> >>>>>>> mailing list archives for that matter. I was able to change my name
> >>>>>>> without
> >>>>>>> duplicating my account, however you can merge accounts back
> together if
> >>>>>>> that happens. Also, It's not enabled by default but you can allow
> >>>>>>> aliases
> >>>>>>> for each user. Presumably, those would be displayed instead of the
> >>>>>>> names.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> It all boils down to personal choice and what you let other people
> know
> >>>>>>> about you.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>    Clif
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Rick Osgood wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I want to see this discussion continue but I wonder if it would
> also
> >>>>>>>> be good to keep a list of the different ideas for fixing the spam
> >>>>>>>> problem and talk about them at the member meeting next Wednesday?
> >>>>>>>> That is assuming some agreed upon resolution is not found in these
> >>>>>>>> discussions.  It seems like altering the way spam is controlled
> would
> >>>>>>>> possibly affect all members who may want to use the forums so
> maybe we
> >>>>>>>> could present the ideas at the meeting and everyone could just
> vote on
> >>>>>>>> them. I just don't want to see this conversation just sort of die
> away
> >>>>>>>> and then nothing is really changed or fixed.  Talking about it at
> the
> >>>>>>>> meeting could be a good way to come up with an action to actually
> >>>>>>>> change/fix things.  Just an idea though, we don't have to do that
> >>>>>>>> either.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 9:42 AM, James Hukill<EMAIL HIDDEN>
> >>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I use message boards all day and IMHO, making new members or
> >>>>>>>>> potential
> >>>>>>>>> new
> >>>>>>>>> members wait to post may chase them off.  On other boards I
> frequent
> >>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>> moderate we do not have a spam account problem.  We should move
> to
> >>>>>>>>> software
> >>>>>>>>> that does not have these issues.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> --James
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 9:34 AM, Rick
> >>>>>>>>> Osgood<EMAIL HIDDEN***
> >>>>>>>>> *com<EMAIL HIDDEN**>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I'm mostly indifferent to all of this.  i haven't used forums
> much
> >>>>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>>> the past, never mind moderating them so I really have no
> experience
> >>>>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>>> this area.  That being said, I would just like to see it setup
> in
> >>>>>>>>>> such
> >>>>>>>>>> a way that members can sign up and start posting quickly without
> >>>>>>>>>> having to wait a long time for someone to approve their
> >>>>>>>>>> account/posts/whatever.  It's definitely frustrating to want to
> post
> >>>>>>>>>> something and have to just wait until some admin somewhere
> decides
> >>>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>> check out your account and approve it.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 7:40 AM, Ben Hallert<EMAIL HIDDEN>
> >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I endorse this.  At even the most wildly enthusiastic
> predictions
> >>>>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>>>> the future of the group, this would remain maintainable.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> - Ben
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 7:19 AM, Laura Harris<
> EMAIL HIDDEN>
> >>>>>>>>>>>  wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Don't allow people to create their own accounts- end of
> problem.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> It's
> >>>>>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>>>>> lot
> >>>>>>>>>>>> easier for an admin to create an account than to maintain an
> >>>>>>>>>>>> ongoing
> >>>>>>>>>>>> routine
> >>>>>>>>>>>> of purging spammers and their spam.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****__
> >>>>>>>>>>>> From: Ellery Weber<EMAIL HIDDEN>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> To: InEugene<EMAIL HIDDEN>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: com.eugenemakerspace.discuss@****eugenemakerspace.com
> <com.**
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> eugenemakerspace.discuss@**eugenemakerspace.com<
> EMAIL HIDDEN>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 10:40 PM
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [EMS Discuss] The "official" forum is getting
> spammed
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> did asd123, achsoo, waligators2013 get verified as users?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> --- Ellery Weber
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 10:15 PM, InEugene<EMAIL HIDDEN
> >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>  wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> If you look at the "homepages" they've set up. It's pretty
> obvious
> >>>>>>>>>>>> they
> >>>>>>>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>>>>>> spam accounts. There have been three additional accounts
> created
> >>>>>>>>>>>> since
> >>>>>>>>>>>> my
> >>>>>>>>>>>> initial email. The captcha doesn't seem to be helping. Fully
> 1/3
> >>>>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> accounts are now fake spam accounts. When the spammer creates
> an
> >>>>>>>>>>>> account on
> >>>>>>>>>>>> that forum they also have access to our first and last names.
> Not
> >>>>>>>>>>>> critical
> >>>>>>>>>>>> but I tried to change the name on my account from Nathan
> Worth to
> >>>>>>>>>>>> NathanW
> >>>>>>>>>>>> and somehow I now have two accounts. I'm curious on how the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> spammers
> >>>>>>>>>>>> got to
> >>>>>>>>>>>> your forum so fast. I would assume mine would have been hit
> >>>>>>>>>>>> because
> >>>>>>>>>>>> they are
> >>>>>>>>>>>> hosted on a free forum site, but I've had no problems. Feel
> free
> >>>>>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>> take a
> >>>>>>>>>>>> look, you'll have to create an account to do so though as I
> have
> >>>>>>>>>>>> only
> >>>>>>>>>>>> general discussion open to non-members and nothing open to
> guests.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://eugenemakerspace.**free**forums.org/<
> http://freeforums.org/>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> <http://**eugenemakerspace.freeforums.**org/<
> http://eugenemakerspace.freeforums.org/>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> -N
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/12/2012 6:43 PM, Mr. Clif wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> That's interesting, thanks for pointing that out Nathan. Yes
> those
> >>>>>>>>>>>> accounts did get created but I only see that
> >>>>>>>>>>>> asd123 tried to post anything, and that was caught in the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> moderation
> >>>>>>>>>>>> queue as it should be. I'm looking for the other's messages
> but it
> >>>>>>>>>>>> says
> >>>>>>>>>>>> zero.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> As we discussed before we can adjust the number of messages
> >>>>>>>>>>>> someone
> >>>>>>>>>>>> must
> >>>>>>>>>>>> send that must be approved by the moderator. I'm not sure
> about
> >>>>>>>>>>>> this
> >>>>>>>>>>>> but
> >>>>>>>>>>>> wouldn't it be cool if that number of posts had to be actually
> >>>>>>>>>>>> approved
> >>>>>>>>>>>> before they could get out of the "moderation box". If true,
> then
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> spamers could only create accounts which will eventually be
> >>>>>>>>>>>> cleaned
> >>>>>>>>>>>> up
> >>>>>>>>>>>> like so much garbage. Additionally it's possible delete all of
> >>>>>>>>>>>> someones
> >>>>>>>>>>>> posts with their account but that may not even be necessary.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Well as far as tradeoffs go, allowing genuine users easy
> account
> >>>>>>>>>>>> creation may be worth the trouble of deleting unused spam
> accounts
> >>>>>>>>>>>> once
> >>>>>>>>>>>> in awhile. There shouldn't be that many because there is a
> captcha
> >>>>>>>>>>>> test.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, there is a point of moderation either way.
> The
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Moderators either have to approve accounts or approve posts.
> I've
> >>>>>>>>>>>> found
> >>>>>>>>>>>> that asking them to fill out a form item like say "What are
> your
> >>>>>>>>>>>> interests" Doesn’t always work. eg, James didn't and I had to
> ask
> >>>>>>>>>>>> him
> >>>>>>>>>>>> if
> >>>>>>>>>>>> that account with a different email address was actually him.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> So....
> >>>>>>>>>>>> It
> >>>>>>>>>>>> might be easier to just wait and see what their first post is.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Clif
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> InEugene wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Looks like spam 7 accounts were created. Only one new post by
> one
> >>>>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the spam accounts. 2 Friday, 2 Saturday, 1 Sunday, 2 today.
> Odd,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> links they posted are mostly German. No spam on the
> "unofficial"
> >>>>>>>>>>>> forums I created. Neither accounts nor posts. Not sure why
> that
> >>>>>>>>>>>> is.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> - Nathan
> >>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Discuss mailing list
> >>>>>>>>>>>> EMAIL HIDDEN
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://eugenemakerspace.com/****mailman/listinfo/com.**<
> http://eugenemakerspace.com/**mailman/listinfo/com.**>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> eugenemakerspace.discuss<http:**//eugenemakerspace.com/**
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> mailman/listinfo/com.**eugenemakerspace.discuss<
> http://eugenemakerspace.com/mailman/listinfo/com.eugenemakerspace.discuss>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Discuss mailing list
> >>>>>>>>>>>> EMAIL HIDDEN
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://eugenemakerspace.com/****mailman/listinfo/com.**<
> http://eugenemakerspace.com/**mailman/listinfo/com.**>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> eugenemakerspace.discuss<http:**//eugenemakerspace.com/**
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> mailman/listinfo/com.**eugenemakerspace.discuss<
> http://eugenemakerspace.com/mailman/listinfo/com.eugenemakerspace.discuss>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Discuss mailing list
> >>>>>>>>>>>> EMAIL HIDDEN
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://eugenemakerspace.com/****mailman/listinfo/com.**<
> http://eugenemakerspace.com/**mailman/listinfo/com.**>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> eugenemakerspace.discuss<http:**//eugenemakerspace.com/**
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> mailman/listinfo/com.**eugenemakerspace.discuss<
> http://eugenemakerspace.com/mailman/listinfo/com.eugenemakerspace.discuss>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Discuss mailing list
> >>>>>>>>>>>> EMAIL HIDDEN
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://eugenemakerspace.com/****mailman/listinfo/com.**<
> http://eugenemakerspace.com/**mailman/listinfo/com.**>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> eugenemakerspace.discuss<http:**//eugenemakerspace.com/**
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> mailman/listinfo/com.**eugenemakerspace.discuss<
> http://eugenemakerspace.com/mailman/listinfo/com.eugenemakerspace.discuss>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Discuss mailing list
> >>>>>>>>>>>> EMAIL HIDDEN
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://eugenemakerspace.com/****mailman/listinfo/com.**<
> http://eugenemakerspace.com/**mailman/listinfo/com.**>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> eugenemakerspace.discuss<http:**//eugenemakerspace.com/**
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> mailman/listinfo/com.**eugenemakerspace.discuss<
> http://eugenemakerspace.com/mailman/listinfo/com.eugenemakerspace.discuss>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________
> >>>>>>>>>>> Discuss mailing list
> >>>>>>>>>>> EMAIL HIDDEN
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> http://eugenemakerspace.com/****mailman/listinfo/com.**<
> http://eugenemakerspace.com/**mailman/listinfo/com.**>
> >>>>>>>>>>> eugenemakerspace.discuss<http:**//eugenemakerspace.com/**
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> mailman/listinfo/com.**eugenemakerspace.discuss<
> http://eugenemakerspace.com/mailman/listinfo/com.eugenemakerspace.discuss>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________
> >>>>>>>>>> Discuss mailing list
> >>>>>>>>>> EMAIL HIDDEN
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> http://eugenemakerspace.com/****mailman/listinfo/com.**<
> http://eugenemakerspace.com/**mailman/listinfo/com.**>
> >>>>>>>>>> eugenemakerspace.discuss<http:**//eugenemakerspace.com/**
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> mailman/listinfo/com.**eugenemakerspace.discuss<
> http://eugenemakerspace.com/mailman/listinfo/com.eugenemakerspace.discuss>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>> --James
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________
> >>>>>>>> Discuss mailing list
> >>>>>>>> EMAIL HIDDEN
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> http://eugenemakerspace.com/****mailman/listinfo/com.**<
> http://eugenemakerspace.com/**mailman/listinfo/com.**>
> >>>>>>>> eugenemakerspace.discuss<http:**//eugenemakerspace.com/**
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> mailman/listinfo/com.**eugenemakerspace.discuss<
> http://eugenemakerspace.com/mailman/listinfo/com.eugenemakerspace.discuss>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Discuss mailing list
> >>>> EMAIL HIDDEN
> >>>>
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> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Discuss mailing list
> >>> EMAIL HIDDEN
> >>>
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> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >>
> >
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