[EMS Discuss] The "official" forum is getting spammed

Rick Osgood EMAIL HIDDEN
Tue Mar 13 14:55:31 PDT 2012


+1 to Ellery's suggestion.

On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 2:37 PM, Ellery Weber <EMAIL HIDDEN> wrote:
> I think this discussion has moved past the appropriateness of email and
> should be discussed at member meeting.
>
> Anyone that has opinions in this subject should prep and prepare to share
> opinion and resolution.
>
> On Mar 13, 2012 2:33 PM, "James Hukill" <EMAIL HIDDEN> wrote:
>>
>> Suggestion ?
>>
>> That  this thread has gotten lost ?
>>
>> Agree bring items to the member meeting to have a open discussion?
>>
>> So at this point we table it and move on with our days
>>
>> --James
>>
>>
>> Please forgive the typos, using my thumbs to type.
>>
>>
>> On Mar 13, 2012, at 2:03 PM, "Mr. Clif" <EMAIL HIDDEN> wrote:
>>
>> > hmmm, I think I can create a forum for people to test. Yes maybe there
>> > were a few of us on the board that didn't get a broader buy in for the
>> > membership, but I had general instructions to proceed, perhaps that was
>> > premature.
>> >
>> > How does giving you and James moderator access = locked everyone out.
>> >
>> > I have made changes like obscuring emails, moderating account sign up,
>> > etc...
>> >
>> > I understand you are upset, but in your arguments have words like
>> > everyone, dictator, "all suggestions were refused" etc... Sorry this isn't
>> > true, please try to be more reasonable.
>> >
>> > You have to realize that even though you have strong opinions it doesn’t
>> > cancel out what others think. I think a good process would be to form some
>> > key questions about the forums and ask people to vote. Then you bring them
>> > along with you instead of being divisive, and forming factions by trying to
>> > argue the loudest.
>> >
>> > I think you are confusing me not accepting all your suggestions cart
>> > Blanche with having made up my mind about what the best way to handle it is.
>> > I haven’t and  I'm not that attached personally to how it gets set up. But I
>> > do know that the whole group should try to participate in the discussion.
>> > not just a couple of people. If there is some agreement then I think we can
>> > all be comfortable with that.
>> >
>> >    Clif
>> >
>> > In Eugene wrote:
>> >> That's not accurate at all. You asked if I thought linking the email
>> >> distro list would be a good idea. I agreed that if it could be done
>> >> that would be great. Then what you did was make a new forum without
>> >> getting buy-in from anyone and then locked everyone out of it and
>> >> you've been running it like a dictator ever since. All suggestions and
>> >> recommendations have been totally ignored because "Clif knows better".
>> >> Almost nothing has changed on that forum since you created it. Don't
>> >> give me this "Prototype" bullshit. You put it in production and
>> >> essentially told the rest of the group that this was the way it was
>> >> going to be.
>> >>
>> >> -N
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 12:28 PM, Mr. Clif<EMAIL HIDDEN>  wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> James,
>> >>>
>> >>> Do you remember that Sunday when we talked about the idea of linked
>> >>> mailing
>> >>> lists and forums? I also talked to Rick and Nathan about it at the
>> >>> same
>> >>> time. You all thought it was a good idea, so I went a head and
>> >>> prototyped
>> >>> it. If you had all said no it sucked I wouldn't have bothered.
>> >>>
>> >>>    Clif
>> >>>
>> >>> James Hukill wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> What group process?  You took it over, ignoring the work Nathan did,
>> >>>>  and
>> >>>> decided to build it yourself on your hardware.  Pot calling kettle.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The culture of the EMS is that is a member see something absent they
>> >>>> can
>> >>>> take the initiative to solve it.  You hijacked Nathans work and
>> >>>> decided to
>> >>>> go rogue and do your own verson.  I don't like yours, and don't have
>> >>>> to.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --James
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 11:39 AM, Mr. Clif<EMAIL HIDDEN>
>> >>>>  wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> I am unclear how any forum will automatically know how to tell a
>> >>>>> spammer
>> >>>>> from an honest person. I believe it will always require human
>> >>>>> intervention.
>> >>>>> Please prove me wrong. As I mentioned before you will have to chose
>> >>>>> weather
>> >>>>> or not to decide based on the new account application or the first
>> >>>>> post.
>> >>>>> All forums that I know of allow you to decide which you prefer. I'm
>> >>>>> not
>> >>>>> sure where the band aid is here. It's not even a plugin. It's a
>> >>>>> click of
>> >>>>> a
>> >>>>> check box.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I feel that perhaps you are impatient with the group process that
>> >>>>> will
>> >>>>> decide these things, and are trying to convince us that phpBB has
>> >>>>> this
>> >>>>> check box and FUDforum doesn’t.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>    Clif
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> James Hukill wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> There is http://www.phpbb.com/ that does not have these
>> >>>>>> spam/account
>> >>>>>> problems.  Why band-aid a solution that does not work when there is
>> >>>>>> one
>> >>>>>> on
>> >>>>>> the shelf that does work.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> In other words, consider this a motion to use PHPBB instead, as
>> >>>>>> it's a
>> >>>>>> know
>> >>>>>> working solution.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> --James
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 10:45 AM, Mr. Clif<EMAIL HIDDEN>
>> >>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Yes we should talk about it, and I'm looking into some ideas.
>> >>>>>>> I would like to note that it's not spam posting problem, and
>> >>>>>>> currently
>> >>>>>>> you
>> >>>>>>> can delete all the bogus accounts at once. I would also like it to
>> >>>>>>> work
>> >>>>>>> kinda like Rick suggests, but I don't see how that could be
>> >>>>>>> completely
>> >>>>>>> automated. It requires some manual intervention, and then a bit of
>> >>>>>>> a
>> >>>>>>> delay.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> As I mentioned before you either moderate the account creation or
>> >>>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>> first post(s). As Rick has hinted at, these things are always
>> >>>>>>> tradeoffs
>> >>>>>>> between Usability and Security / Annoyance.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> To address Nathan's comment about the names, you don't have to
>> >>>>>>> create
>> >>>>>>> an
>> >>>>>>> account to see those. They are visible to anyone browsing the
>> >>>>>>> forum, or
>> >>>>>>> mailing list archives for that matter. I was able to change my
>> >>>>>>> name
>> >>>>>>> without
>> >>>>>>> duplicating my account, however you can merge accounts back
>> >>>>>>> together if
>> >>>>>>> that happens. Also, It's not enabled by default but you can allow
>> >>>>>>> aliases
>> >>>>>>> for each user. Presumably, those would be displayed instead of the
>> >>>>>>> names.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> It all boils down to personal choice and what you let other people
>> >>>>>>> know
>> >>>>>>> about you.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>    Clif
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Rick Osgood wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> I want to see this discussion continue but I wonder if it would
>> >>>>>>>> also
>> >>>>>>>> be good to keep a list of the different ideas for fixing the spam
>> >>>>>>>> problem and talk about them at the member meeting next Wednesday?
>> >>>>>>>> That is assuming some agreed upon resolution is not found in
>> >>>>>>>> these
>> >>>>>>>> discussions.  It seems like altering the way spam is controlled
>> >>>>>>>> would
>> >>>>>>>> possibly affect all members who may want to use the forums so
>> >>>>>>>> maybe we
>> >>>>>>>> could present the ideas at the meeting and everyone could just
>> >>>>>>>> vote on
>> >>>>>>>> them. I just don't want to see this conversation just sort of die
>> >>>>>>>> away
>> >>>>>>>> and then nothing is really changed or fixed.  Talking about it at
>> >>>>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>>> meeting could be a good way to come up with an action to actually
>> >>>>>>>> change/fix things.  Just an idea though, we don't have to do that
>> >>>>>>>> either.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 9:42 AM, James Hukill<EMAIL HIDDEN>
>> >>>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> I use message boards all day and IMHO, making new members or
>> >>>>>>>>> potential
>> >>>>>>>>> new
>> >>>>>>>>> members wait to post may chase them off.  On other boards I
>> >>>>>>>>> frequent
>> >>>>>>>>> and
>> >>>>>>>>> moderate we do not have a spam account problem.  We should move
>> >>>>>>>>> to
>> >>>>>>>>> software
>> >>>>>>>>> that does not have these issues.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> --James
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 9:34 AM, Rick
>> >>>>>>>>> Osgood<EMAIL HIDDEN***
>> >>>>>>>>> *com<EMAIL HIDDEN**>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm mostly indifferent to all of this.  i haven't used forums
>> >>>>>>>>>> much
>> >>>>>>>>>> in
>> >>>>>>>>>> the past, never mind moderating them so I really have no
>> >>>>>>>>>> experience
>> >>>>>>>>>> in
>> >>>>>>>>>> this area.  That being said, I would just like to see it setup
>> >>>>>>>>>> in
>> >>>>>>>>>> such
>> >>>>>>>>>> a way that members can sign up and start posting quickly
>> >>>>>>>>>> without
>> >>>>>>>>>> having to wait a long time for someone to approve their
>> >>>>>>>>>> account/posts/whatever.  It's definitely frustrating to want to
>> >>>>>>>>>> post
>> >>>>>>>>>> something and have to just wait until some admin somewhere
>> >>>>>>>>>> decides
>> >>>>>>>>>> to
>> >>>>>>>>>> check out your account and approve it.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 7:40 AM, Ben Hallert<EMAIL HIDDEN>
>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> I endorse this.  At even the most wildly enthusiastic
>> >>>>>>>>>>> predictions
>> >>>>>>>>>>> for
>> >>>>>>>>>>> the future of the group, this would remain maintainable.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> - Ben
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 7:19 AM, Laura
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Harris<EMAIL HIDDEN>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>  wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Don't allow people to create their own accounts- end of
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> problem.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> It's
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> a
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> lot
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> easier for an admin to create an account than to maintain an
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ongoing
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> routine
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> of purging spammers and their spam.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****__
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> From: Ellery Weber<EMAIL HIDDEN>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> To: InEugene<EMAIL HIDDEN>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Cc:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> com.eugenemakerspace.discuss@****eugenemakerspace.com<com.**
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> eugenemakerspace.discuss@**eugenemakerspace.com<EMAIL HIDDEN>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 10:40 PM
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [EMS Discuss] The "official" forum is getting
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> spammed
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> did asd123, achsoo, waligators2013 get verified as users?
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> --- Ellery Weber
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 10:15 PM,
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> InEugene<EMAIL HIDDEN>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>  wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> If you look at the "homepages" they've set up. It's pretty
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> obvious
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> they
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> are
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> spam accounts. There have been three additional accounts
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> created
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> since
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> my
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> initial email. The captcha doesn't seem to be helping. Fully
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 1/3
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> of
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> accounts are now fake spam accounts. When the spammer creates
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> an
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> account on
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> that forum they also have access to our first and last names.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Not
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> critical
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> but I tried to change the name on my account from Nathan
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Worth to
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> NathanW
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> and somehow I now have two accounts. I'm curious on how the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> spammers
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> got to
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> your forum so fast. I would assume mine would have been hit
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> because
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> they are
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> hosted on a free forum site, but I've had no problems. Feel
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> free
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> to
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> take a
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> look, you'll have to create an account to do so though as I
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> have
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> only
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> general discussion open to non-members and nothing open to
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> guests.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://eugenemakerspace.**free**forums.org/<http://freeforums.org/>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> <http://**eugenemakerspace.freeforums.**org/<http://eugenemakerspace.freeforums.org/>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -N
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/12/2012 6:43 PM, Mr. Clif wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> That's interesting, thanks for pointing that out Nathan. Yes
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> those
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> accounts did get created but I only see that
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> asd123 tried to post anything, and that was caught in the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> moderation
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> queue as it should be. I'm looking for the other's messages
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> but it
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> says
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> zero.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> As we discussed before we can adjust the number of messages
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> someone
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> must
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> send that must be approved by the moderator. I'm not sure
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> about
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> this
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> but
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> wouldn't it be cool if that number of posts had to be
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> actually
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> approved
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> before they could get out of the "moderation box". If true,
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> then
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> spamers could only create accounts which will eventually be
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> cleaned
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> up
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> like so much garbage. Additionally it's possible delete all
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> of
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> someones
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> posts with their account but that may not even be necessary.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Well as far as tradeoffs go, allowing genuine users easy
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> account
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> creation may be worth the trouble of deleting unused spam
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> accounts
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> once
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> in awhile. There shouldn't be that many because there is a
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> captcha
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> test.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, there is a point of moderation either way.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Moderators either have to approve accounts or approve posts.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I've
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> found
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> that asking them to fill out a form item like say "What are
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> your
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> interests" Doesn’t always work. eg, James didn't and I had to
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ask
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> him
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> if
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> that account with a different email address was actually him.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> So....
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> It
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> might be easier to just wait and see what their first post
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> is.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Clif
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> InEugene wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Looks like spam 7 accounts were created. Only one new post by
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> one
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> of
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> the spam accounts. 2 Friday, 2 Saturday, 1 Sunday, 2 today.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Odd,
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> links they posted are mostly German. No spam on the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> "unofficial"
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> forums I created. Neither accounts nor posts. Not sure why
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> that
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> is.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> - Nathan
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Discuss mailing list
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> EMAIL HIDDEN
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://eugenemakerspace.com/****mailman/listinfo/com.**<http://eugenemakerspace.com/**mailman/listinfo/com.**>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> eugenemakerspace.discuss<http:**//eugenemakerspace.com/**
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> mailman/listinfo/com.**eugenemakerspace.discuss<http://eugenemakerspace.com/mailman/listinfo/com.eugenemakerspace.discuss>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Discuss mailing list
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> EMAIL HIDDEN
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://eugenemakerspace.com/****mailman/listinfo/com.**<http://eugenemakerspace.com/**mailman/listinfo/com.**>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> eugenemakerspace.discuss<http:**//eugenemakerspace.com/**
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> mailman/listinfo/com.**eugenemakerspace.discuss<http://eugenemakerspace.com/mailman/listinfo/com.eugenemakerspace.discuss>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Discuss mailing list
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> EMAIL HIDDEN
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://eugenemakerspace.com/****mailman/listinfo/com.**<http://eugenemakerspace.com/**mailman/listinfo/com.**>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> eugenemakerspace.discuss<http:**//eugenemakerspace.com/**
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> mailman/listinfo/com.**eugenemakerspace.discuss<http://eugenemakerspace.com/mailman/listinfo/com.eugenemakerspace.discuss>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Discuss mailing list
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> EMAIL HIDDEN
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://eugenemakerspace.com/****mailman/listinfo/com.**<http://eugenemakerspace.com/**mailman/listinfo/com.**>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> eugenemakerspace.discuss<http:**//eugenemakerspace.com/**
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> mailman/listinfo/com.**eugenemakerspace.discuss<http://eugenemakerspace.com/mailman/listinfo/com.eugenemakerspace.discuss>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Discuss mailing list
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> EMAIL HIDDEN
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://eugenemakerspace.com/****mailman/listinfo/com.**<http://eugenemakerspace.com/**mailman/listinfo/com.**>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> eugenemakerspace.discuss<http:**//eugenemakerspace.com/**
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> mailman/listinfo/com.**eugenemakerspace.discuss<http://eugenemakerspace.com/mailman/listinfo/com.eugenemakerspace.discuss>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Discuss mailing list
>> >>>>>>>>>>> EMAIL HIDDEN
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
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>> >>>>>>>>>>> eugenemakerspace.discuss<http:**//eugenemakerspace.com/**
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> mailman/listinfo/com.**eugenemakerspace.discuss<http://eugenemakerspace.com/mailman/listinfo/com.eugenemakerspace.discuss>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________
>> >>>>>>>>>> Discuss mailing list
>> >>>>>>>>>> EMAIL HIDDEN
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>> >>>>>>>>>>
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>> >>>>>>>>>> mailman/listinfo/com.**eugenemakerspace.discuss<http://eugenemakerspace.com/mailman/listinfo/com.eugenemakerspace.discuss>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> --
>> >>>>>>>>> --James
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> ______________________________****_________________
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>> >>>>>>>>
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>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
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