[EMS Discuss] New Linked Forums

Ben Hallert - Vipmail EMAIL HIDDEN
Thu Mar 15 20:49:43 PDT 2012


Hey, this isn't cool.  I suggest tabling this until the meeting, the EMS is not putting its best face forward here.

- Ben

On Mar 15, 2012, at 8:32 PM, "Mr. Clif" <EMAIL HIDDEN> wrote:

> Hey Nathan,
> 
> I'm sorry that we don't communicate well, I couldn't even get you to answer a simple question about avatar file sizes, not sure why. If we had a simple discussion from the get go we would have been done a long time ago.
> I'm sorry in that other thread we had a flame out. I was trying to steer it to better questions, which we never got to because you got upset with me, and called me a dictator, not a big deal ;-) . I am still trying to get to these questions. so why don't you relax and let us talk about them, instead of interupting. Something good might come of it. Ok?
> 
> What I truly feel is that the only thing that has ever blocked us from moving forward has been the lack of nice  relaxed sane discussion, and we have time to do that while we wait for the meeting to roll around.
> 
>    Thanks for listening,
>    Clif
> 
> In Eugene wrote:
>> Well Clif,
>> 
>> I wasn't actually addressing my email to you, but since you asked. As
>> I was accused of being divisive, forming factions and my character was
>> called into question in the last email thread on this topic. I'm going
>> to have to disagree. I believe the open member meeting would be a much
>> better place for this discussion. As several months passed between the
>> time I suggested a forum initially and when I actually created one I
>> think we can wait a few more days. Then we can see if I actually do
>> argue the loudest as I was accused of that as well. I understand you
>> are in damage control mode now, I believe that can wait as well. That
>> is your choice of course.
>> 
>> - Nathan
>> 
>> On 3/15/2012 3:31 PM, Mr. Clif wrote:
>>   
>>> Yes Nathan,
>>> 
>>> but isn't it better to predigest things as we have time for them now, and hopefully take less time at the meeting to finish them off? If our addenda is full it might be a lot to cram into a couple hours.
>>> 
>>> I feel that if say, five or six people (hopefully more) responded we would have enough input to chose our direction. If that were the case then we could talk about tuning up the new direction at the meeting instead of
>>> wondering what it was.
>>> 
>>>     That is my hope anyway,
>>>     Clif
>>> 
>>> InEugene wrote:
>>>     
>>>> I was under the impression that this was also going to be addressed at the open member meeting.
>>>> 
>>>> -Nathan
>>>> 
>>>> On 3/15/2012 2:18 PM, Mr. Clif wrote:
>>>>       
>>>>> Yes, I like that as well Ben, and there are about a dozen check boxes to detail your privacy settings, and more than 20 profile settings overall on the current forum.
>>>>> 
>>>>>     Clif
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ben Hallert - Vipmail wrote:
>>>>>         
>>>>>> Personally, I like the idea of openly viewable forums (like phpbb) with handles so the amount of exposed private info is controllable by each individual.  I hope this option is considered as well.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> - Ben
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mar 15, 2012, at 1:42 PM, "Mr. Clif"<EMAIL HIDDEN>   wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>> Hey Gang,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Rick Osgood wrote:
>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>> Is there another way we can sort of vote on these things so a majority
>>>>>>>> of the forum users are happy?  Can we have a poll in the forum so they
>>>>>>>> can vote on various features and then the forum is changed
>>>>>>>> accordingly?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Just some thoughts.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Rick
>>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>> I feel like discussion has stalled on this. I hope you don't think I'm bad because I also want to take a straw poll before taking action, and I considered Rick's suggestion of doing it in the forum, though more people are on this list...
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Mr. Clif wrote:
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>> Good thoughts Rick,
>>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>> If we set up new admins. Do they then get total say on which way to go? I don't see how that changes anything, but if you think thats best,  I will be happy to make new admins.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Clif
>>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>> It seems like we have a lot of suggestions, and several people able to take action but not a clear direction yet. Here is an example, Rick also suggested that we take the mail archives offline for now, and he and Ellery can do that if they want. Though apparently no one felt like that was the course to take yet so again no action was taken.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I have been consistantly pushing for a good process not tied to any outcome. Like Rick says "so a majority
>>>>>>> of the forum users are happy" is absolutely my goal. the only thing blocking us is the lack of discussion. Please don't think I am asking so I can run things. Our goal from the start was to turn it over to some other admins. I feel strongly that we should somewhat agree on what direction to take it first that's all. Do you think I'm being too difficult?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Here is what I know about peoples probable answers to my questions below:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Nathan:    seems to prefer closed forums, and suggested that the archives have all addresses redacted.
>>>>>>> Rick:         suggested that the archives be taken offline at least for now.
>>>>>>> Ellery:      Didn't like the addresses in the forums but it wasn't clear if that was before or after they were
>>>>>>>                  obscured. I sent him some material to help him get caught up, and hoped for a suggestion.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>     Sorry I feel I should remember a few more opinions, please repost here so we can have a good group process.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>     Thanks, :-)
>>>>>>>     Clif
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Mr. Clif wrote:
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>> Dear EMS members,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I felt that part of the lively discussion we had the other day was productive, even though there was a flame out at the end. I'm referring to the part where a lot of people chimed in with their opinion on how the user registration should be handled. I was very happy to see that many people following the debate and contributing their ideas. Maybe we could try that again with a different question. Strange as it may seem I have asked different versions of this question to the board and a few members but haven’t gotten a good sense of the collective will of the people or even the board! Which is really frustrating for me, because I feel strongly that just two or three people shouldn't decide something that affects all the members and how the organization is perceived from the outside, on their own. It's a hard question partly because it's about philosophy and tradeoffs.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Here it is in a nut shell:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> We are currently a small but growing group of people who like to share our ideas and projects, and one of the ways we do this is on this email list. There are others who prefer forums to emails, and some who like news groups or RSS feeds. If we link all these things together everyone can participate in these discussions using their favorite format.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I feel that EMS as an org tries to be as open with it's information as possible and make it easy to find out about us and to interact. That is the philosophy as I see it. So up till now our mailing list archives and our prototype forums have been open and readable by all, including search engines. So for example if someone is looking for a Rubins tube project they will see Rick talking about it in the archives or forums.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The trade off is that there are some email addresses in the quoted messages in our posts that will show up in both places, and there is a minimal amount of obscuration done to them by both packages. There is some small amount of coding and maintenance required to do more than that.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> So the question is; should we continue our philosophy of openness, or close our archives, and forums?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> If we keep them open then how should we handle the email addresses?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Leave them as they are, "joe at foo.bar.com" and let our personal spam filters deal with the few extra spams picked up? The archives have been around since October, has anyone noticed a change?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Or one of these options:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>     "joe at foo dot bar dot com"
>>>>>>>>     "joe at spam-protected"
>>>>>>>>     removed completely
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> or something I didn't think of?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Thanks for your input it helps a lot.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>     Clif
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Ellery Weber wrote:
>>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>>> I'm kinda late to this discussion, but I would also really prefer that our
>>>>>>>>> email address not be on the forums...
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> --- Ellery Weber
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 10:32 AM, Bob Miller<EMAIL HIDDEN>    wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>>>> I created a Google+ page for EMS a few weeks before the grand opening.
>>>>>>>>>> I am crappy at keeping it updated, though.  Would you (Nathan or anyone
>>>>>>>>>> else) like me to add you as an administrator?
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I think this is the URL.
>>>>>>>>>> https://plus.google.com/u/0/111153472349343637677/posts
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 9:10 PM, InEugene<EMAIL HIDDEN>   wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> - Just did a Google search on my other email address and the second
>>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>>> result
>>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>>> was http://eugenemakerspace.com/pipermail/com.eugenemakerspace.discusseven
>>>>>>>>>>> with the obfuscation. I'd prefer a system that stripped the email
>>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>>> addresses
>>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>>> altogether. Maybe that's too complicated. I'd think you could do a 'find
>>>>>>>>>>> words that contain "@" and replace with "..."' or something. Talking to
>>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>>> Alex
>>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>>> it sounds like changing the "@" to "at" would have little benefit.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> - Standard size for avatars on the other forums I've worked on is
>>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>>> 100x100.
>>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>>> If filesize is an issue we can always host them on imgur. Is filesize an
>>>>>>>>>>> issue?
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> - I still don't seem to have admin access. If you go into the
>>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>>> Moderator/User
>>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>>> Manager admin control panel you should be able to pull up my account and
>>>>>>>>>>> then under Forum Administrator you can click on the toggle link to assign
>>>>>>>>>>> administrative rights.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> - Side note: Are we planning on having a Google+ presence? I know
>>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>>> several of
>>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>>> us are on there. I could set that up as well.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> /Nathan
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/7/2012 7:42 PM, Mr. Clif wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey Nathan,
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes I was going to mention that. The lost password procedure is a two
>>>>>>>>>>>> step process. When it takes you to the login page you need to wait for
>>>>>>>>>>>> the second email which has your account name and new password, and as
>>>>>>>>>>>> Nathan has noted it might end up in your spam folder.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Nathan wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>                       
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Be aware, if you are using Gmail the reset password email may get
>>>>>>>>>>>>> stuck in your spam filter.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also I'm checking with a friend of mine who works in messaging to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> determine what level of obfuscation will be sufficient to avoid
>>>>>>>>>>>>> harvesting. I'm not sure if just turning the "@" symbols to "at" will
>>>>>>>>>>>>> do the trick as harvesters are pretty sophisticated. I don't follow
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the email threat landscape very closely but Alex should have a good
>>>>>>>>>>>>> idea what is required.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                         
>>>>>>>>>>>> Excelent, I look forward to his insights. For comparisons sake this is
>>>>>>>>>>>> *All* that mailman does. You can check our archives here:
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://eugenemakerspace.com/pipermail/com.eugenemakerspace.discuss to
>>>>>>>>>>>> see. How many mailman installations are there? tens of thousands? 100s
>>>>>>>>>>>> of thousands? Anyway I agree, I think email obfuscation is mostly to
>>>>>>>>>>>> make users feel good, I don't think it's that practical. That is what
>>>>>>>>>>>> spam filters are for.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Now, what I just wrote for the forums does more than this. It also
>>>>>>>>>>>> strips off the mailto: and<...>    around the addresses. Mailman doesn’t
>>>>>>>>>>>> bother with that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>                       
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I believe we'll need to increase the max avatar size as well. I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>> guessing it's set to default now and it's crazy small.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                         
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ok what size seems reasonable to you?
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>                       
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I did make FAKESPAMACCOUNT for testing, the posts were for testing as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Nathan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                         
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cool,
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> So we talked about our mailing list and forum policy at the board
>>>>>>>>>>>> meeting tonight, and decided that we like it the way it is for now, but
>>>>>>>>>>>> will be happy to adjust things when we start to have problems. It was
>>>>>>>>>>>> noted that most forums do allow unmoderated signups. So I think that the
>>>>>>>>>>>> next thing we will have to tweak is to bump the number of initial
>>>>>>>>>>>> moderated posts up to 2 etc...
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ciao,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Clif
>>>>>>>>>>>>                       
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/7/2012 6:02 PM, Rick Osgood wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                         
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I would personally prefer it if the new users were moderated rather
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than posts. It pisses me off to not be able to post to a forum
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> multiple times. I understand the first time, but then again and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> again? I think many would agree that it is frustrating.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, what about making Nathan an admin? I didn't see a response to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that. That would help get moderation done quickly and help get things
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tweaked and working faster.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 5:34 PM, Mr. Clif<EMAIL HIDDEN>    wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                           
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nathan,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> InEugene wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                             
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think you will want to switch that. As it stands making an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unlocked and anyone can do create one in 30 seconds and have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                               
>>>>>>>>>> access...
>>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes that is exactly the same as the mailing lists, and we haven't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                             
>>>>>>>>>> had a
>>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> problem with them yet. In fact Rick decided that it was too hard to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> post to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the board list so he opened it up to everyone.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                             
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ...to the but all posts are moderated. What you will want to do is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so all new members have to be approved and posts are unmoderated,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> otherwise
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> someone will have to constantly be moderating posts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                               
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, perhaps that will become a problem someday, maybe even soon. At
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time we can easily switch. The forum uses Captcha so at least bots
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> easily register, and the first N posts of a new user are moderated.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Right
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> now N is one, so we will probably have to bump that up.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I see someone made a FAKESPAMACCOUNT
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://forum.eugenemakerspace.com/index.php?t=usrinfo&id=26&>    was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that you?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unfortunately those posts are still in the moderation queue... and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                             
>>>>>>>>>> now
>>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they're gone.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                             
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When can you obfuscate the email addresses? You might want to pull
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forums back down until that can be done.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                               
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Done.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ciao,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Clif
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                             
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/7/2012 4:10 PM, Mr. Clif wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                               
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes anyone can read the forums, but only registered users can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> post, which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the same for the mailing lists.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Only emails that came from quoted text in the lists are visible,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                                 
>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those can be obfuscated in the same way the forum archives are.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Clif
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                                 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm seeing a rather large problem with this. Correct me if I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrong but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it looks like anyone can access these forums. It also looks like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> email address is visible here. I'm pretty sure this will result
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in all of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our email addresses being harvested for spam and phishing attacks.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Nathan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/7/2012 8:53 AM, Clif Cox wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                                   
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You log in to the forum using the lost password procedure
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (just the first time) and navigate to the topic of interest.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then you select the "Subscribe to topic" link at the top of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the page. You will probably also want to go to your member
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> profile to fine tune some other settings.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You can also pull down new topics from a forum in an RSS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feed, though I'm not sure you can just select messages in a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> topic, eg:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                                     
>>>>>>>>>> http://forum.eugenemakerspace.com/feed.php?mode=t&l=1&n=10&frm=1&format=rss
>>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ciao!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Clif
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                                     
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                                   
>>>>>>>>>> http://eugenemakerspace.com/mailman/listinfo/com.eugenemakerspace.discuss
>>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                               
>>>>>>>>>> http://eugenemakerspace.com/mailman/listinfo/com.eugenemakerspace.discuss
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                             
>>>>>>>>>> http://eugenemakerspace.com/mailman/listinfo/com.eugenemakerspace.discuss
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                           
>>>>>>>>>> http://eugenemakerspace.com/mailman/listinfo/com.eugenemakerspace.discuss
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>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>                         
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>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>>> http://eugenemakerspace.com/mailman/listinfo/com.eugenemakerspace.discuss
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>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Bob Miller                              K<bob>
>>>>>>>>>>                                          EMAIL HIDDEN
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Discuss mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>             
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> 
>>>     
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