[EMS Discuss] [EMS Committee] [EMS Board] Agenda items, and Wallis walk through

Mr. Clif clif at eugeneweb.com
Wed Mar 5 12:48:18 PST 2014

Hi gang,

Ok Tom, Ben, and Sam, and I saw the space and enjoyed talking to the 
Realtor who was very nice about it.
Some of us were brainstorming about how to carve off 1000 sqft of 
additional quite space for classrooms. It wouldn't be that hard, just 
one wall and a ceiling. Which if done right would give us storage on the 
top. Then Marie could have large sewing classes etc...

So lets look at what criteria it meets:

* Over 2000 sqft
* In fact enough space for Ben to build his airplane.
* About $1000 / mo
* About 30 - 40% office space some of which we could rent out.
* Two bay doors
* 240V and three phase breakers in the panel.
* Three separate breaker panels with room in them.
* On the bus line.
* Has a deli around the corner.
* A place to launch rockets and fly quad copters. Or go canoing in the 
winter. ;-)

Ok Obviously it's not perfect but nothing is. Hey Tom  really likes the 
place next to the Kiva, talk about location location location! But no 
roll up doors, and the last time I was in there it had a foot of water 
in the basement. Seriously if you wait for the perfect place it will be 
a long long time...

Now Id'e like to respond to Rick's will written points below. Basically 
I feel that we don't have any problems bringing people in. They come by 
almost every OHN, and they come during outreach events, This has been 
VERY EASY for us to do. The actual problem is keeping them. They look at 
what we have and think Meh.... and walk back out.

Yes cleaning it up helped, but I don't think that's enough. I said this 
at yesterdays board meeting, We have to make a choice between saving our 
bank account for moving into a new space or buying some cool tools that 
people will want to use so we can grow our membership. I'm ok with 
either way but we can't do both. If we buy tools then we probably can't 
move for another year.


On 03/05/2014 11:52 AM, Rick Osgood wrote:
> Our growth did stall in the second half of 2013 but we don't really 
> know why that is.  Initially I believed it was because our space was 
> so "small" but honestly after cleaning it up and making it more 
> efficient I think we can still find room to grow our membership in 
> this space.  At any given time the space is either empty or only a 
> couple people are there.  Open Hack Nights may be more crowded since 
> the nature of those nights is for everyone to get together.  I think 
> our recent initiative to improve our current space and make it 
> suitable for classes might actually help us grow in our current space, 
> in which case we could potentially increase our income to a level 
> where we can more easily afford to move to a bigger space like Marie 
> was talking about.
> We have done outreach events in the past but I don't think we've ever 
> really figured out how to get people in the door and make them want to 
> stay and we certainly haven't been consistent about outreach.  We 
> typically hear about some event going on and just have one or two 
> people show up with fliers and something cool to look at but we've 
> never really figured out how to make people excited enough to show up. 
>  We touched on this early on when the committee was formed when we 
> discussed ways to quickly and efficiently tell people what EMS is and 
> why they should be excited about it.  It was back when we were talking 
> about the differences in the word "shop" and "studio", etc.  I don't 
> think we ever figured it out though.
> With the current state of the space, I think we can more easily make 
> people want to join than we could have 3 months ago when it was a 
> mess.  We just need to figure out how to make them show up to our 
> space, and how to get them to sign up.  In my opinion, the best way to 
> accomplish this would be to find a way to show people how becoming a 
> member will HELP them and IMPROVE their lives.  The hard part is 
> figuring out what that message should be and how to reach the right 
> audience.  I actually just thought of a fun idea I'll throw into a new 
> thread so as not to de-rail this one.  This may be a less expensive 
> and less risky way to increase our income rather then moving to a 
> bigger space and hoping it will draw people in.
> Though, if we find the right space and we are able to stretch I'm not 
> opposed to trying.  I just think Marie has a valid point that we can 
> still grow in our current space if we actually try.
> On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 10:29 AM, Mr. Clif <clif at eugeneweb.com 
> <mailto:clif at eugeneweb.com>> wrote:
>     Thanks Marie for posting your thoughts,
>     First of all I'de like to say, Please come and see the space
>     before you form a strong opinion on it. Take an early lunch and
>     join us. :-)
>     Next if we waited to grow big enough before we moved into our
>     current space we wouldn't have gotten there. Sadly over the last
>     three years in spite of numerous outreach events, our growth has
>     stalled. This strategy doesn't seem to be working.
>     The first space in your list at least is one we have already made
>     an offer on and it was declined.
>     --- Everyone, Please join us at 10:40 today, right now! ;-) ---
>         Ciao,
>         Clif
>     On 03/05/2014 10:20 AM, Marie Slatton-Valle wrote:
>>     Ok, I've been lurking long enough so here's my two cents.
>>     Let's continue focusing our efforts on what we can do now with
>>     the space we have.  The Kickstarter panel and shop clean-up days
>>     have been great steps forward.  Our goal should be to increase
>>     membership to the point that we can afford a $2k rent and justify
>>     a move. Meanwhile, we can really map out what we want in a new
>>     space and what it will take to get us there. I'm down for more
>>     committee meetings but can really only handle once a month.  I'd
>>     much rather spend my time planning and holding an open sewing
>>     hack night in the near future now that the shop space is cleaner
>>     and more usable (and I have more time now).
>>     I would very much like to hear what Eric of Swim Left has to
>>     offer aside from that I think we should suspend the search with
>>     one eye open. I personally, don't feel we should move unless
>>     there is a very compelling reason.  The Wallace property does
>>     nothing for me.  It's a bigger iteration of the space we have now
>>     and clearly, having a space is not enough if EMS intends to
>>     grow.  Also, a low price/high SQFT ratio shouldn't be the sole
>>     reason for a move either, especially if it lessens the chance of
>>     attracting new members.
>>     A few nights back I found some amazing properties searching on CL
>>     and Loopnet and then later realized that the rent was too high
>>     for what EMS could afford.  Regardless, I feel these locations
>>     represent, at least for me, spaces for EMS to aspire towards.
>>     *$2017, 4,203 SQFT - Retail/Warehouse on 10th near Garfield (next
>>     door to NextStep Donation Ctr)*
>>     http://www.loopnet.com/lid/18110057
>>     flyer:
>>     http://s.lnimg.com/attachments/8/9/9/899B7D08-7D5D-400E-B607-1C372355BF29.pdf
>>     *$2500, 2700 SQFT - Historic Fire Station Property (1st St in the
>>     Whiteaker)*
>>     http://www.loopnet.com/lid/18458165
>>     *$2500, 2170 SQFT - Whiteaker Neighborhood Retail Outbuilding (on
>>     6th next to Grey's Garden Center)*
>>     http://www.loopnet.com/lid/18550268
>>     *$2400, 5750 SQFT - Warehouse and Office Space (675 Wilson)*
>>     http://eugene.craigslist.org/off/4337544979.html
>>     On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 9:23 AM, Mr. Clif <clif at eugeneweb.com
>>     <mailto:clif at eugeneweb.com>> wrote:
>>         sure why not?
>>             Clif
>>         On 03/05/2014 09:14 AM, Ben Hallert wrote:
>>>         Following up on this, are there any objections to someone
>>>         sending out a link to the map with something like the
>>>         example request text between the -------- below to discuss? 
>>>         This thread only has the board and committee copied on it.
>>>         If there are no objections, I will send it as-is to discuss
>>>         when this email is five hours old so speak now or forever
>>>         etc etc etc.
>>>         Ben
>>>         - Ben
>>>         On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 7:27 PM, Ben Hallert <ben at hallert.net
>>>         <mailto:ben at hallert.net>> wrote:
>>>             Per Ellery's excellent idea to get a visualization of
>>>             where our membership is, I've created a example ZeeMaps
>>>             map that we should all be able to add pushpins to
>>>             without needing to log in.  Could we perhaps send
>>>             something like this out to the larger distribution with
>>>             a request for participation as part of gathering this
>>>             data?  I suggest some basic text along the lines of:
>>>             -----------
>>>             The Board and Committee To Embiggen Our Space is looking
>>>             for information to help choose our future location.  As
>>>             part of this, we'd like to get an idea of where everyone
>>>             lives or thinks they'll be commuting from most
>>>             frequently.  If you would like your location to be taken
>>>             into consideration in determining where we'll go next,
>>>             please visit the following link and click 'Additions'
>>>             then 'Add Marker - Simple' and follow the instructions
>>>             to enter a pushpin.  Be as specific or as general as you
>>>             want, we're just looking for general location data to
>>>             help with planning.
>>>                 http://bit.ly/1i6zKvp 
>>>             Thanks!
>>>             -----------
>>>             This way we can hopefully get a basic idea of where
>>>             everyone is coming from that might help define the ideal
>>>             geofence.
>>>             Thoughts?
>>>             - Ben
>>>             - Ben
>>>             On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 4:44 PM, Ellery Weber
>>>             <ellery at elleryweber.com <mailto:ellery at elleryweber.com>>
>>>             wrote:
>>>                 Off the top of my head:
>>>                 ·It needs to be affordable.
>>>                 It does make me a bit anxious to jump in feet first
>>>                 into something that is more than double our current
>>>                 rent. I know we have some people who have
>>>                 volunteered to help out by donating more to help
>>>                 with rent. I know that many people did that at the
>>>                 McKinley space as well, so I'm totally fine with
>>>                 doing that again. It just makes me nervous, but
>>>                 that's not a big deal in the long run if we have
>>>                 supporters. I do think that this committee and the
>>>                 board needs to make this a requirement and set hard
>>>                 numbers. A hard look at member runoff, utility
>>>                 fluctuation, income fluctuation, and committed
>>>                 members donating extra to make ends meet needs to
>>>                 happen before this number can be set.
>>>                 ·It needs to be accessible
>>>                 It would be neat to see where all our current
>>>                 members lived, and try to find a location that is a
>>>                 mid-point for all of them. That only takes into
>>>                 account current members, so there is selection bias,
>>>                 but would be interesting nonetheless. I think our
>>>                 current area is good. West Eugene tends to be more
>>>                 industrial, so we could fit in better. Being close
>>>                 to residential is problematic, so the fact that
>>>                 there is an apartment attached to the Wallis unit is
>>>                 a cause for concern for me, but depending on the
>>>                 tenant may be a non-issue.
>>>                 ·It needs to have the proper resources available for
>>>                 EMS to be useful (and to grow!)
>>>                 Mostly, here I'm talking about shop space, office
>>>                 space, power, and other amenities that are a
>>>                 requirement for a working shop to function.  Below,
>>>                 I use the word 'plenty'. This is very subjective,
>>>                 but I believe a fixed number should be decided upon
>>>                 as a minimum. Just throwing it out there, but the
>>>                 2000 sq foot total that was proposed by Weston
>>>                 sounds good on paper. It would depend on shape and
>>>                 how much was the office space vs shop space.
>>>                 This list, in my mind, includes (not exhaustive):
>>>                 1.Plenty of shop space
>>>                 2.Plenty of office/clean space
>>>                 3.Bathroom
>>>                 4.Utility sink
>>>                 5.3 phase power
>>>                 6.Plenty of power outlets
>>>                 7.Flexibility to make minor adjustments (tape off
>>>                 areas of the floor, run network jacks, paint?)
>>>                 ·It needs to be secure
>>>                 There are a few places I've seen that are in pretty
>>>                 sketchy areas of Eugene. I'd have to look through
>>>                 the wiki again to find which ones, but I know at
>>>                 least one of them was in a place that I wouldn't
>>>                 really feel comfortable leaving my car parked out
>>>                 front let alone leave expensive tools inside.
>>>                 Security for members tools is a high importance if
>>>                 we want to try and build a community workshop and
>>>                 expect people to feel comfortable leaving their
>>>                 stuff at the space.
>>>                 Again, this is just off the top of my head and
>>>                 fairly general.
>>>                 EW
>>>                 Ps, I only proofread this once, so please forgive
>>>                 any errors/misspellings
>>>                 *From:*Mr. Clif [mailto:clif at eugeneweb.com
>>>                 <mailto:clif at eugeneweb.com>]
>>>                 *Sent:* Tuesday, March 4, 2014 4:21 PM
>>>                 *To:* Ellery Weber
>>>                 *Cc:* 'board'; 'Committee'
>>>                 *Subject:* Re: [EMS Board] [EMS Committee] Agenda
>>>                 items, and Wallis walk through
>>>                 Those are all good talking points but it's up to
>>>                 everyone to share their view points on this. What
>>>                 are yours Ellery?
>>>                     Clif
>>>                 On 03/04/2014 04:09 PM, Ellery Weber wrote:
>>>                     These are excellent points, Weston -- thank you
>>>                     for bringing them up.
>>>                     Based on what we want, we can look at up to
>>>                     $1000/mo, and at least 2000 sq ft  - is that
>>>                     correct?
>>>                     EW
>>>                     *From:*Committee
>>>                     [mailto:committee-bounces at eugenemakerspace.com]
>>>                     *On Behalf Of *Weston Turner
>>>                     *Sent:* Monday, March 3, 2014 11:55 PM
>>>                     *To:* Rick Osgood
>>>                     *Cc:* board; Committee
>>>                     *Subject:* Re: [EMS Committee] [EMS Board]
>>>                     Agenda items, and Wallis walk through
>>>                     I want to clarify what my vision for EMS is and
>>>                     how that informs the decisions I have made that
>>>                     affect the space. I'd like to also point out my
>>>                     observations of how our space is used in order
>>>                     to justify what we have and have not done as an
>>>                     organization.
>>>                     In my mind, the most important thing that EMS
>>>                     provides to its members is a community workshop.
>>>                     Therefore the most important thing I can do is
>>>                     make sure the shop is well stocked with useful
>>>                     tools, is organized such that those tools are
>>>                     readily usable, and is clean so that members can
>>>                     work on their projects without having to clean
>>>                     up other member's messes first.
>>>                     To this end, I think we have accomplished two of
>>>                     those three goals, the shop is now clean
>>>                     (although member storage and the parts area
>>>                     could be more tidy), but the shop working areas
>>>                     are very clean and usable. We have a wide
>>>                     assortment of tools that are in good working
>>>                     order. In fact, based on a maker-shop book that
>>>                     Mark showed me, we are a mature shop, only
>>>                     lacking a couple of more advanced tools such as
>>>                     a laser cutter/engraver and CNC machinery. Where
>>>                     I think we have the most room for improvement is
>>>                     shop organization, such as making tools and
>>>                     parts more easily locatable, and the
>>>                     organization of space itself so that it is more
>>>                     easily cleaned and moved about in. There are
>>>                     many things we can do to improve usability:
>>>                     place large tools and equipment, tables, and
>>>                     other difficult to move things on lockable
>>>                     casters so they can be easily pushed around by a
>>>                     single person, create a parts database so that
>>>                     memeber's can determine what parts we have and
>>>                     where they are located, do the same thing for
>>>                     our tools, make outlines of tools where they are
>>>                     stored so they can easily be placed back where
>>>                     the came from, etc..
>>>                     The other focus of our group is community
>>>                     outreach, and I maintain that if the community
>>>                     can come in to our shop on open hack nights and
>>>                     with the assistance of members, use the shop and
>>>                     learn how to use tools and make stuff, then that
>>>                     mission is primarily fulfilled. An added
>>>                     function is for EMS to go out into the community
>>>                     and participate in events for outreach and to
>>>                     let people know who we are and what we do. By
>>>                     the way,*kudos to Mark for putting on an
>>>                     excellent panel discussion on Kickstarter*. I
>>>                     learned a lot, and thought everyone did an
>>>                     excellent job. The event was well attended, and
>>>                     I thought people came away with their questions
>>>                     answered and with good insight into how to make
>>>                     Kickstarter work for them. Thank you to the
>>>                     panelists and volunteers who helped put the
>>>                     event on as well.
>>>                     Regarding moving to a new space, we should only
>>>                     consider a particular new space if it will
>>>                     increase our capacity for *making*, by
>>>                     immediately and with little to no improvement
>>>                     required provide for more tools (laser cutter,
>>>                     welders, plasma cutter, CNC, etc.), motivate
>>>                     more people to join due to having a more
>>>                     functional space, and encourage added membership
>>>                     and foot traffic due to a better location and
>>>                     street presence (read: a more central location).
>>>                     We also have to be able to afford the move-in
>>>                     costs and first several months of operation at
>>>                     current membership levels.
>>>                     Regarding the notion that we are going to move
>>>                     into a space of 3X the cost and radically change
>>>                     the model of operation of the shop in order to
>>>                     fund it, i.e., by teaching classes, I am
>>>                     skeptical that we can pull this off due to the
>>>                     following reasons: most members have day jobs
>>>                     that consume the majority of their time and
>>>                     energy, I/we would be reluctant to pour a
>>>                     tremendous amount of additional energy into
>>>                     converting EMS from a community shop into a
>>>                     business (which is essentially what a non-free
>>>                     school is) with potentially very demanding
>>>                     customers (students). I do envision EMS putting
>>>                     on classes, but not at the scale at which it
>>>                     would cover the larger portion of our budget. We
>>>                     have thus far not held classes at the shop, and
>>>                     we need to do so in order to work out the
>>>                     process of holding them and to gauge levels of
>>>                     participation.
>>>                     In light of these reasons, and the fact that the
>>>                     shop for the majority of the time goes totally
>>>                     unutilized, I am not compelled to settle for a
>>>                     space that does not satisfy the goals mentioned
>>>                     above and additionally the following requirements:
>>>                     *- The space shall be at least twice the size of
>>>                     our current space and no more than twice the
>>>                     cost. Read: that as less than or equal to 2X the
>>>                     current cost and greater than or equal to 2X the
>>>                     space...*
>>>                     *- The space shall be partitioned roughly
>>>                     equally between shop and office space, with the
>>>                     office space not exceeding the size of the shop.
>>>                     Maybe 1/3 office and 2/3 shop would be the most
>>>                     unequal partition allowable. *
>>>                     *- The space shall be accessible, i.e,
>>>                     conveniently located so that it is a compelling
>>>                     hang out spot and readily used by members
>>>                     without a long commute. Read: no less centrally
>>>                     located than we already are.*
>>>                     *- The shop space shall have at least one
>>>                     overhead door.*
>>>                     *- The space shall have utilities in place to
>>>                     make it immediately usable, i.e. electrical
>>>                     outlets 120/240V and preferable 3 phase available.*
>>>                     *- The space shall have a bathroom and a utility
>>>                     sink.*
>>>                     *- The space shall be easily secured in order to
>>>                     protect member's tools.*
>>>                     *- The space shall permit a flexible lease
>>>                     arrangement, ideally month to month, with 6
>>>                     months, and a year lease being less optimal.
>>>                     That way we can recover from a failure to grow
>>>                     into a larger space without being scarred by
>>>                     legal troubles from an inability to meet the
>>>                     lease agreement. *
>>>                     I encourage you all to add to, these
>>>                     requirements (or challenge them), and for that
>>>                     matter, add to, question, and challenge the
>>>                     ideas put forward in this mail in general (as
>>>                     it's just my 2 cents, but maybe closer to a
>>>                     nickel or a dime at this length :))
>>>                     Regards,
>>>                     Weston
>>>                     On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 7:43 PM, Weston Turner
>>>                     <wstnturner at gmail.com
>>>                     <mailto:wstnturner at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>                         I'd like to discuss whether we want to have
>>>                         a presence at these two events at the UO
>>>                         this Saturday and the Saturday after (thanks
>>>                         to Mark for forwarding these events to Discuss):
>>>                         ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>                         From: *Brandy Todd* <btodd at uoregon.edu
>>>                         <mailto:btodd at uoregon.edu>>
>>>                         Date: Wed, Feb 19, 2014 at 11:04 AM
>>>                         Subject: Science Fair & Queen's Ball Call
>>>                         for Presenters!
>>>                         To: spicescience at uoregon.edu
>>>                         <mailto:spicescience at uoregon.edu>
>>>                         Cc: Ariana Evensen <evensen at uoregon.edu
>>>                         <mailto:evensen at uoregon.edu>>, UO STEM CORE
>>>                         <stemcore at uoregon.edu
>>>                         <mailto:stemcore at uoregon.edu>>
>>>                         Greetings All,
>>>                         It Science Fair time once again!  And once
>>>                         again, we'd love to have your group host an
>>>                         activity table at the event.  BUT WAIT!
>>>                          There's MORE!  This year as part of my SLUG
>>>                         Queen "Rain" I am holding a fundraiser for
>>>                         SPICE and we'd love to have
>>>                         volunteers/participants for that as well.
>>>                          All proceeds will go to the SPICE program
>>>                         to support girls in SCIENCE!  Details below
>>>                         *Science Fair *- March 8th 11am-3pm -
>>>                         Willamette Atrium - Would your group like to
>>>                         host an activity table?  Would your members
>>>                         like to volunteer to help out/judge?  Please
>>>                         let us know.  This is a super fun event for
>>>                         all ages and a great way to showcase the
>>>                         wonderful outreach your program does.
>>>                         *Slug Queen's Pi-Pie Gala Ball
>>>                         Extravaganza!*- March 15th 7pm-11pm in the
>>>                         Willamette Atrium.  Imaging the Fall Science
>>>                         Open House, but for adults!  We're going to
>>>                         have tons of fun science, music dancing (and
>>>                         no kids ;-) !).  We need volunteers for all
>>>                         aspects of the event and groups to host
>>>                         activities for attendees.  We've already
>>>                         nailed down microscope making and Liquid
>>>                         Nitrogen Ice Cream/Dry Ice Root Beer Floats.
>>>                          Do you have a fun demo or activity you'd
>>>                         like to show off for an adult audience (get
>>>                         as racy as you like)?  This is the event for
>>>                         you.  Featuring music by Accordions
>>>                         Anonymous.  Poster Attached.  Please share
>>>                         with your friends and if you don't want to
>>>                         present, then come and have fun as a guest!
>>>                         https://www.facebook.com/events/226564254198673/
>>>                         If we want to participate, we need to call
>>>                         out for volunteers and figure out what we
>>>                         want to have at our table. I'd like to see
>>>                         us there, so I'll step up to volunteer.
>>>                         On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 6:53 PM, Rick Osgood
>>>                         <rick at richardosgood.com
>>>                         <mailto:rick at richardosgood.com>> wrote:
>>>                             First, I like all of the points Weston
>>>                             has called out in his last email in the
>>>                             thread.  That's the kind of thing I was
>>>                             talking about.  If that was decided
>>>                             already and posted somewhere before then
>>>                             I'm sorry I either missed it or forgot.
>>>                             Second, I didn't mean to demean Clif's
>>>                             efforts.  I know he put more work into
>>>                             finding the new spaces than anyone else
>>>                             likely did.  I do appreciate that.  I am
>>>                             just trying to get us to make sure we
>>>                             know what we are doing before putting
>>>                             ourselves in the same situation as before.
>>>                             Third, I should mention that to begin
>>>                             with I was all for the "bite the bullet"
>>>                             approach with the Wilson space that we
>>>                             missed out on.  Now that I see where
>>>                             that lead us, I think it would be wise
>>>                             to try another approach this time.
>>>                              That's what I'm getting at.
>>>                             Rick
>>>                             On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 6:42 PM, Kassie
>>>                             <kassandra_kaplan at yahoo.com
>>>                             <mailto:kassandra_kaplan at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>>>                                 I have to say that while I don't
>>>                                 like the situation we are in and the
>>>                                 pressure behind it, I believe cliff
>>>                                 is trying his best to do his job and
>>>                                 he has being put in a situation
>>>                                 where his work amounts to nothing
>>>                                 because of our response time.  We
>>>                                 have lost good spaces because we
>>>                                 could not react and for Clif that
>>>                                 means countless memos and
>>>                                 conversation add to nothing.
>>>                                 At one point, everyone was driven to
>>>                                 move into a new space and it was I
>>>                                 that felt "under the gun" to except
>>>                                 the need to make the leap of faith.
>>>                                  I hear people say "move or die" and
>>>                                 that when we moved into our current
>>>                                 space you had to just "hope it would
>>>                                 all work out".  While I'm glad we
>>>                                 are being
>>>                                 more realistic and metered in our
>>>                                 approach, I do take exception to
>>>                                 people complaining about what they
>>>                                 were doing a few months ago.
>>>                                 I think we need we need to go a step
>>>                                 farther then what mark is
>>>                                 suggesting.  I think we need to
>>>                                 create a protocol for finding,
>>>                                 assessing, applying, and renting a
>>>                                 new space.
>>>                                 It would include all our "wants and
>>>                                 dreams" but it should also include
>>>                                 algorithm that will put us in a
>>>                                 space quickly. While, it's important
>>>                                 to know what we want and can afford,
>>>                                 we need to be able to get it.  There
>>>                                 is no point debating a place if we
>>>                                 can't actually get the place.  In
>>>                                 fact,  I suggest we should suspend
>>>                                 looking for a new place till we get
>>>                                 this protocol in place or those
>>>                                 looking for spaces are wasting their
>>>                                 time.
>>>                                 Kassie
>>>                                 Sent from my iPhone
>>>                                 On Mar 3, 2014, at 5:41 PM, "Mr.
>>>                                 Clif" <clif at eugeneweb.com
>>>                                 <mailto:clif at eugeneweb.com>> wrote:
>>>                                     The reason I'm putting pressure
>>>                                     on us is because a few of us
>>>                                     have already agreed that $1200
>>>                                     would be dooable, and that this
>>>                                     place will be gone this week.
>>>                                     Also we have been skipping space
>>>                                     committee meetings and board
>>>                                     meetings when I had a decent
>>>                                     list of agenda items to catch up
>>>                                     on. But without a clear option
>>>                                     in front of us I guess as a
>>>                                     group we didn't feel the need to
>>>                                     work these details out. Now that
>>>                                     we have something it's too late
>>>                                     to work them out. Sigh...
>>>                                         Clif
>>>                                     Ok then I guess there is no
>>>                                     point in looking at the Wallis
>>>                                     place this week.
>>>                                     On 03/03/2014 04:50 PM, Rick
>>>                                     Osgood wrote:
>>>                                         Well put, Mark.
>>>                                         On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 4:48
>>>                                         PM, Mark Danburg-Wyld
>>>                                         <danburgwyld at gmail.com
>>>                                         <mailto:danburgwyld at gmail.com>>
>>>                                         wrote:
>>>                                             I agree with that, Rick
>>>                                             - not that I think Clif
>>>                                             is trying to put anyone
>>>                                             under the gun, but that
>>>                                             we need some consensus
>>>                                             before we can try to go
>>>                                             forward with any
>>>                                             particular site. Seems
>>>                                             to me that the best
>>>                                             approach is to recognize
>>>                                             we will likely be in a
>>>                                             "stretch" position when
>>>                                             we do move to a larger
>>>                                             space, and also to
>>>                                             recognize there will be
>>>                                             some trade-offs to
>>>                                             consider in terms of
>>>                                             location and features.
>>>                                             But give that, can we
>>>                                             strive to reach a
>>>                                             consensus around
>>>                                             something like:
>>>                                             1. no more than $X/month
>>>                                             2. at least Y sq. ft.
>>>                                             3. no fewer than three
>>>                                             of the following benefits:
>>>                                                 a. multiple bays,
>>>                                                 b. 3 phase,
>>>                                                 c. etc.
>>>                                             4. none of the following
>>>                                             show-stoppers:
>>>                                             a. Springfield address
>>>                                                 b. etc.
>>>                                             Then, once we have that
>>>                                             level of clarity around
>>>                                             what we want, when the
>>>                                             next right space comes
>>>                                             online, we'll be
>>>                                             positioned to jump. If
>>>                                             after some period of
>>>                                             time, we find that our
>>>                                             requirements do not
>>>                                             overlap with reality,
>>>                                             revisit and adjust,
>>>                                             repeat...
>>>                                             Otherwise, I think,
>>>                                             we'll keep ending up
>>>                                             with 'this space looks
>>>                                             good'/'feels like a rush
>>>                                             to decide' kind of debate.
>>>                                             On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at
>>>                                             4:00 PM, Rick Osgood
>>>                                             <rick at richardosgood.com
>>>                                             <mailto:rick at richardosgood.com>>
>>>                                             wrote:
>>>                                                 I would simply like
>>>                                                 to see EMS as an
>>>                                                 organization come to
>>>                                                 some consensus as to
>>>                                                 what it is willing
>>>                                                 to accept as
>>>                                                 "affordable".  EMS
>>>                                                 needs to figure out
>>>                                                 how much money we
>>>                                                 have and then decide
>>>                                                 how much risk we are
>>>                                                 willing to accept by
>>>                                                 making a commitment
>>>                                                 over that amount.
>>>                                                  This is really
>>>                                                 about two things.
>>>                                                  Affordability and
>>>                                                 Risk.
>>>                                                 Clif, the way you
>>>                                                 are pushing this
>>>                                                 makes me feel you
>>>                                                 are attempting to
>>>                                                 put everyone under
>>>                                                 the gun and make
>>>                                                 them feel pressured
>>>                                                 to sign a new lease
>>>                                                 hope everything
>>>                                                 magically works out.
>>>                                                  That might work,
>>>                                                 but in my opinion
>>>                                                 it's not the way an
>>>                                                 three year old
>>>                                                 organization should
>>>                                                 operate.  It's
>>>                                                 sloppy and
>>>                                                 unnecessary.  I
>>>                                                 think it's unfair
>>>                                                 for you to push that
>>>                                                 kind of pressure on
>>>                                                 every one else.  If
>>>                                                 there are a bunch of
>>>                                                 members who are want
>>>                                                 to take this
>>>                                                 approach again then
>>>                                                 I'll retract my last
>>>                                                 statement but I
>>>                                                 didn't get the
>>>                                                 feeling anyone
>>>                                                 wanted to go through
>>>                                                 that again.  Why
>>>                                                 don't we learn from
>>>                                                 our mistakes instead
>>>                                                 of repeating them?
>>>                                                 Let's say we find a
>>>                                                 space for
>>>                                                 $1200/month today.
>>>                                                  Then what?  We
>>>                                                 still have to decide
>>>                                                 if we can "afford
>>>                                                 it" by paying out of
>>>                                                 our savings, making
>>>                                                 up the difference,
>>>                                                 and accepting the
>>>                                                 risk that it might
>>>                                                 take us a while to
>>>                                                 actually start
>>>                                                 breaking even again.
>>>                                                  How about we decide
>>>                                                 what that acceptable
>>>                                                 risk level is now
>>>                                                 and then approach
>>>                                                 this intelligently,
>>>                                                 rather than waiting
>>>                                                 until the last
>>>                                                 minute again and
>>>                                                 making everyone feel
>>>                                                 pressured?  We tried
>>>                                                 the "jump in with
>>>                                                 two feet" approach
>>>                                                 last time and it
>>>                                                 didn't work because
>>>                                                 we didn't have a
>>>                                                 clear definition of
>>>                                                 what level of risk
>>>                                                 we are willing to
>>>                                                 accept.  What makes
>>>                                                 you think the result
>>>                                                 will be any
>>>                                                 different this time
>>>                                                 around when we still
>>>                                                 haven't figured out
>>>                                                 the acceptable risk?
>>>                                                  Let's not waste the
>>>                                                 renter or the
>>>                                                 realtor's time
>>>                                                 again.  Let's figure
>>>                                                 out what we are
>>>                                                 comfortable with
>>>                                                 first, then then
>>>                                                 when it comes time
>>>                                                 to pull the trigger
>>>                                                 we won't be able to
>>>                                                 hesitate on the
>>>                                                 financial issues
>>>                                                 because we will have
>>>                                                 already made that
>>>                                                 decision.
>>>                                                 On Mon, Mar 3, 2014
>>>                                                 at 3:44 PM, Mr. Clif
>>>                                                 <clif at eugeneweb.com
>>>                                                 <mailto:clif at eugeneweb.com>>
>>>                                                 wrote:
>>>                                                     Well ok can we
>>>                                                     afford anything
>>>                                                     more than we are
>>>                                                     paying now? One
>>>                                                     answer is no, it
>>>                                                     will put us in
>>>                                                     the red. On the
>>>                                                     other hand If
>>>                                                     everyone that
>>>                                                     pledged extra is
>>>                                                     still good for
>>>                                                     that then that's
>>>                                                     another $500. So
>>>                                                     its close. But
>>>                                                     then we will
>>>                                                     have utils and
>>>                                                     other extra
>>>                                                     stuff so still
>>>                                                     no, can't do it.
>>>                                                     You could wait
>>>                                                     for 1500 sq foot
>>>                                                     space or a 2000
>>>                                                     sq ft space but
>>>                                                     they will be in
>>>                                                     random places
>>>                                                     that we don't
>>>                                                     really like
>>>                                                     etc... Then you
>>>                                                     could stay in
>>>                                                     them for a year
>>>                                                     each and slowly
>>>                                                     work up to
>>>                                                     bigger spaces.
>>>                                                     Or we could 
>>>                                                     just go for it
>>>                                                     and save
>>>                                                     ourselves a
>>>                                                     couple of moves
>>>                                                     and the years
>>>                                                     flying by.
>>>                                                     Because if we
>>>                                                     wait longer than
>>>                                                     a few days this
>>>                                                     space will be
>>>                                                     Gone...
>>>                                                     In summary, all
>>>                                                     we have to do is
>>>                                                     wring our hands
>>>                                                     and drag our
>>>                                                     feet and the
>>>                                                     spaces will just
>>>                                                     evaporate right
>>>                                                     before our very
>>>                                                     eyes. ;-)
>>>                                                         Clif
>>>                                                     On 03/03/2014
>>>                                                     03:07 PM, Rick
>>>                                                     Osgood wrote:
>>>                                                         I think
>>>                                                         before we
>>>                                                         start
>>>                                                         scheduling a
>>>                                                         walk through
>>>                                                         and
>>>                                                         appointments
>>>                                                         and bugging
>>>                                                         the realtor,
>>>                                                         I'd like to
>>>                                                         see EMS
>>>                                                         decide on
>>>                                                         solid
>>>                                                         numbers.  I
>>>                                                         think Clif
>>>                                                         is right
>>>                                                         that it's a
>>>                                                         perceptual
>>>                                                         problem and
>>>                                                         different
>>>                                                         people think
>>>                                                         that
>>>                                                         different
>>>                                                         amounts
>>>                                                         sound
>>>                                                         acceptable.
>>>                                                          That's
>>>                                                         something
>>>                                                         that is
>>>                                                         bound to
>>>                                                         happen as a
>>>                                                         community
>>>                                                         but as an
>>>                                                         single
>>>                                                         organization
>>>                                                         we have to
>>>                                                         come to some
>>>                                                         agreement.
>>>                                                          I think the
>>>                                                         board, or
>>>                                                         perhaps this
>>>                                                         committee,
>>>                                                         should vote
>>>                                                         to approve
>>>                                                         numbers for
>>>                                                         Rent and
>>>                                                         Utilities
>>>                                                         and then we
>>>                                                         will only
>>>                                                         schedule
>>>                                                         appointments
>>>                                                         for places
>>>                                                         that we
>>>                                                         believe meet
>>>                                                         those
>>>                                                         requirements.  Otherwise
>>>                                                         we are
>>>                                                         likely to do
>>>                                                         the exact
>>>                                                         same thing
>>>                                                         as last
>>>                                                         time.  We
>>>                                                         can tell the
>>>                                                         Realtor
>>>                                                         straight up
>>>                                                         to only look
>>>                                                         at spaces
>>>                                                         that meet
>>>                                                         these
>>>                                                         requirements.  Then
>>>                                                         she will
>>>                                                         know that we
>>>                                                         won't sit on
>>>                                                         our hands
>>>                                                         for a month
>>>                                                         trying to
>>>                                                         figure out
>>>                                                         where the
>>>                                                         money is
>>>                                                         going to
>>>                                                         come from.
>>>                                                         I think it's
>>>                                                         really
>>>                                                         important
>>>                                                         that we
>>>                                                         learn our
>>>                                                         lesson from
>>>                                                         this last
>>>                                                         experience
>>>                                                         and do it
>>>                                                         right this
>>>                                                         time around.
>>>                                                          $1200 does
>>>                                                         sound much
>>>                                                         better than
>>>                                                         $1400 in my
>>>                                                         opinion but
>>>                                                         can we
>>>                                                         actually
>>>                                                         afford that?
>>>                                                          I have no
>>>                                                         idea.  Does
>>>                                                         anyone have
>>>                                                         any idea?
>>>                                                          Again, I'd
>>>                                                         like to see
>>>                                                         some solid
>>>                                                         numbers
>>>                                                         coming back
>>>                                                         from the
>>>                                                         board so we
>>>                                                         all know
>>>                                                         exactly
>>>                                                         where we
>>>                                                         draw the
>>>                                                         line and we
>>>                                                         don't sit
>>>                                                         around
>>>                                                         trying to
>>>                                                         make a
>>>                                                         decision.
>>>                                                          We make
>>>                                                         that
>>>                                                         decision
>>>                                                         first, then
>>>                                                         we can jump
>>>                                                         on a space
>>>                                                         immediately.
>>>                                                         On Mon, Mar
>>>                                                         3, 2014 at
>>>                                                         3:01 PM, Mr.
>>>                                                         Clif
>>>                                                         <clif at eugeneweb.com
>>>                                                         <mailto:clif at eugeneweb.com>>
>>>                                                         wrote:
>>>                                                             This is
>>>                                                             an
>>>                                                             excellent question
>>>                                                             Bob,
>>>                                                             I think
>>>                                                             part of
>>>                                                             the
>>>                                                             (perceptual)
>>>                                                             problem
>>>                                                             with the
>>>                                                             Wilson
>>>                                                             space
>>>                                                             was we
>>>                                                             didn't
>>>                                                             have the
>>>                                                             money in
>>>                                     _______________________________________________
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>>>                             _______________________________________________
>>>                             Board mailing list
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>>>                             <mailto:Board at eugenemakerspace.com>
>>>                             http://eugenemakerspace.com/mailman/listinfo/com.eugenemakerspace.board
>>>                     _______________________________________________
>>>                     Board mailing list
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>>>                     http://eugenemakerspace.com/mailman/listinfo/com.eugenemakerspace.board
>>>                 _______________________________________________
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>>         _______________________________________________
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