[EMS Discuss] [EMS Committee] [EMS Board] Agenda items, and Wallis walk through

Darrell Perko dperko at efn.org
Wed Mar 5 16:01:14 PST 2014

I'd certainly be interested in helping financially to make some sort of 
CNC milling machine a reality.  Although it could become broken through 
careless use, I imagine the milling machines are overall less fussy than 
the printers.

On 3/5/2014 3:42 PM, Mr. Clif wrote:
> Very good points, this might come under resource management. We should 
> talk more about how to do it.
>     Clif
> On 03/05/2014 03:36 PM, Rick Osgood wrote:
>> I could put a little money toward a CNC milling machine for the space 
>> as I would love to have access to one.  However we already have two 
>> CNC devices that seem to often be in an "unknown" state (3d 
>> printers).  We also have a lathe/mill but I'm not sure if the mill 
>> works or if there is a plan to make it work.  Maybe someone else 
>> knows more about that.
>> I guess what I'm getting at is, I'd rather not see us spend $1000 on 
>> a new tool and have it end up neglected and in an unknown state like 
>> the 3d printers.  We might want to figure out a way to first ensure 
>> that tools stay in proper working order before we go spending money 
>> on more tools.  Maybe we need a tool/space manager?  Or maybe we 
>> should have members sign up to "own" certain tools in the shop and 
>> it's their job to make sure the tool stays in working order, make 
>> sure we are stocked up in tool bits, etc (or get someone else to do 
>> it for them if needed).
>> It's possible that the 3d printers are more high maintenance than a 
>> cnc milling machine and are therefore a special case.  I don't have 
>> experience with the mills to know.
>> On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 3:30 PM, Ben Hallert <ben at hallert.net 
>> <mailto:ben at hallert.net>> wrote:
>>     A 2D CNC device of some sort could be a big draw. Hypothetically
>>     speaking, if a group of members were to each commit to ponying up
>>     some cash towards getting something like that for the shop that
>>     we could afford as a group, would anyone here be interested in
>>     being involved?  Figure out anyone who could contribute money or
>>     expertise in finding something affordable, whether it's something
>>     small like a ShapeOko-class cutter or if it's a chinese 2.5D mill
>>     or something, it seems like a feasible idea that could be within
>>     reach.
>>     I can bring this to the general list, of course, but I wanted to
>>     run the basic idea past the board and the committee for an
>>     initial smell-test first as one of those people who could
>>     probably commit one or two centabucks towards this.
>>     Ben
>>     - Ben
>>     On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 3:24 PM, Mr. Clif <clif at eugeneweb.com
>>     <mailto:clif at eugeneweb.com>> wrote:
>>         Yes the owners son is living there and something would be in
>>         the lease agreement that he will forgive us if we are noisy
>>         at night once in a while. What it comes down to is the owner
>>         has a choice, he can keep his son in the appartment for free,
>>         or he can keep his tennet in a large shop space that is
>>         making him money. Go figure ;-)
>>         more below...
>>         On 03/05/2014 02:21 PM, Rick Osgood wrote:
>>>         Is this the space that has someone living in an apartment
>>>         attached to it?  If so, I personally still see that as a
>>>         pretty big concern but it sounds like it has a lot of other
>>>         great qualities going for it and the apartment thing might
>>>         not be a deal breaker depending on the requirements we all
>>>         agree on.  I still don't understand what the requirements
>>>         actually are.  Maybe it would be worth voting on each one at
>>>         the next committee meeting so we can all have a clear
>>>         understanding of what they are.
>>>         Clif, It sounds like you are saying that we get a lot of new
>>>         people into EMS and many of them leave specifically because
>>>         our space is too small or we don't have enough (or the
>>>         correct) tools.  Is there data to support this?
>>         Yes, I have seen these people show up once or twice and then
>>         never come back myself. I have talked to other members who
>>         have seen the same. Of course you can't ask them why they
>>         don't come back because they don't come back.
>>>          You made it sound like the only way to grow our membership
>>>         is to either spend money on new tools or spend money on a
>>>         larger space.  I'd like to challenge that notion.  Perhaps
>>>         the problem is that people don't understand what EMS can do
>>>         for them.  Maybe the come in, check us out, look around and
>>>         say "Cool...*I don't get it*."  Maybe we aren't doing a good
>>>         enough job making them see EMS the way we see it.  If they
>>>         walk in and see a shop full of tools and don't get it, they
>>>         aren't likely to walk into a bigger shop with even more
>>>         tools and suddenly understand.
>>         True enough, but why would they drive over to a shop if the
>>         weren't looking for a shop? ;-)
>>         Ok maybe they are looking for a club house with crafty stuff
>>         going on that they can get involved in like maybe the YMCA or
>>         the like. Do we want lots of ongoing craft workshops that
>>         someone can just drop into, sit down and start soldering?
>>         Counter example, Kassie says that if we had an NC mill she
>>         could get us several more members right now.
>>>         If that is in fact the problem then buying new tools and
>>>         upgrading our space is not guaranteed to solve that problem.
>>>          It would only solve the problem in these cases:
>>>         1. People don't join because we don't have a specific tool
>>>         or set of tools that they want.
>>>         2. People don't join because they think our physical space
>>>         is unsuitable for doing whatever it is they want to do.
>>>         I would wager that the majority of people who are not
>>>         joining do not fit into either of these categories.
>>>          Instead, they likely come down without any clear idea of
>>>         what they expect us to be or what they hope they can gain
>>>         from us.  I'm suggesting that if we can do things to help
>>>         people understand how EMS can help them we can likely
>>>         increase our membership without moving OR spending money on
>>>         new tools.  The bonus is that if we do end up moving and/or
>>>         buying more tools this stuff will still help us.  It helps
>>>         regardless of our location, tools, resources, etc.  So it
>>>         seems like a good area to put some focus on.  It also
>>>         requires little no no risk.
>>         Yep we should definitely do this, are you volunteering? :-)
>>         What I think most people want is tools they don't have at
>>         home. 3D printers are a start though I wish they worked more
>>         often. Remember our almost other founding member Shane? Right
>>         after we moved into our current space he asked: "Do you have
>>         a laser cutter?" the answer was no. Did we ever see him even
>>         once show up? No. There is a clue in there somewhere, get out
>>         your decoder rings...
>>         The reason I don't come down and work on projects more?
>>         Because we don't have an NC mill or a laser cutter or a
>>         working 3D printer. Simple.
>>             Ciao,
>>             Clif
>>>         On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 1:04 PM, Sam Foster
>>>         <sam at sneetchworks.com <mailto:sam at sneetchworks.com>> wrote:
>>>             Quick notes on the Wallis space:
>>>             Like Clif said, with some build out to extend the
>>>             interior space (not a negligible cost but not too huge
>>>             either - Clif don't forget we would need to run lighting
>>>             if we put a ceiling in) this checks pretty much all our
>>>             boxes on physical requirements of the building.
>>>             The space is a bit tatty, the ceiling and walls could
>>>             use some tidying up. But, its cheap and you get what you
>>>             pay for. There will be a new roof, there's all the power
>>>             we might want. At least 2 bay/sliding doors. Concrete
>>>             floors, reasonable light. It even has a hoist! And
>>>             there's what used to be a shower and might become one
>>>             again with some work.
>>>             The area is both exciting and off-putting. Its right in
>>>             that part of town where you feel like you could build
>>>             *anything*. With open space not far away and plenty of
>>>             parking and room to move around, it could be awesome.
>>>             But, that comes at a cost. It is further out of town.
>>>             Its 20mins drive for me. I've lived in big cities and I
>>>             fully recognize this is not so far in the grand scheme
>>>             of things, but as you keep going and keep going it
>>>             *feels* far away. Drive by traffic would be zero (no
>>>             different from our current space). I don't expect it
>>>             would be a popular location with the cyclists. It not on
>>>             the way to anywhere, so difficult to "pop into".
>>>             So, I'm on the fence. If others feel the location is
>>>             workable, I will get behind it. If not, I won't shed
>>>             tears. But when we talk about needing to compromise and
>>>             adjust our criteria to meet reality, this is what it
>>>             comes down to. Here is a great space with what sounds
>>>             like a reasonable landlord and the prospect of good
>>>             lease terms. But not in the part of town we had in mind.
>>>             /Sam
>>>             On 05/03/2014 12:43 PM, Mr. Clif wrote:
>>>                 Hi gang,
>>>                 Ok Tom, Ben, and Sam, and I saw the space and
>>>                 enjoyed talking to the Realtor who was very nice
>>>                 about it.
>>>                 Some of us were brainstorming about how to carve off
>>>                 1000 sqft of additional quite space for classrooms.
>>>                 It wouldn't be that hard, just one wall and a
>>>                 ceiling. Which if done right would give us storage
>>>                 on the top. Then Marie could have large sewing
>>>                 classes etc...
>>>                 So lets look at what criteria it meets:
>>>                 * Over 2000 sqft
>>>                 * In fact enough space for Ben to build his airplane.
>>>                 * About $1000 / mo
>>>                 * About 30 - 40% office space some of which we could
>>>                 rent out.
>>>                 * Two bay doors
>>>                 * 240V and three phase breakers in the panel.
>>>                 * Three separate breaker panels with room in them.
>>>                 * On the bus line.
>>>                 * Has a deli around the corner.
>>>                 * A place to launch rockets and fly quad copters. Or
>>>                 go canoing in the winter. ;-)
>>>                 Ok Obviously it's not perfect but nothing is. Hey
>>>                 Tom  really likes the place next to the Kiva, talk
>>>                 about location location location! But no roll up
>>>                 doors, and the last time I was in there it had a
>>>                 foot of water in the basement. Seriously if you wait
>>>                 for the perfect place it will be a long long time...
>>>                 Now Id'e like to respond to Rick's will written
>>>                 points below. Basically I feel that we don't have
>>>                 any problems bringing people in. They come by almost
>>>                 every OHN, and they come during outreach events,
>>>                 This has been VERY EASY for us to do. The actual
>>>                 problem is keeping them. They look at what we have
>>>                 and think Meh.... and walk back out.
>>>                 Yes cleaning it up helped, but I don't think that's
>>>                 enough. I said this at yesterdays board meeting, We
>>>                 have to make a choice between saving our bank
>>>                 account for moving into a new space or buying some
>>>                 cool tools that people will want to use so we can
>>>                 grow our membership. I'm ok with either way but we
>>>                 can't do both. If we buy tools then we probably
>>>                 can't move for another year.
>>>                     Clif
>>>             <snip>
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